Nelson & His World

Whilst reading 'HMS Colossus' by Roland Morris and David Constantine's 'Fields of Fire,' I noticed two contrasting opinions of how Sir William Hamilton's best vases and paintings were returned to England in late 1799 or the early months of 1800.

Morris says that they were returned in the Foudroyant and Constantine says not (but doesn't elaborate.)

Consequently I'm wondering if it's possible to trace the movements of the Foudroyant between February 1800 and March 1801, and would be grateful if anyone could provide a pointer where to begin?

Mira:

I've just had a look at 'Vases and Volcanoes', the catalogue of the BM's exhibition on Sir William It makes several mentions of the 'Colossus' as the ship that carried the second collection to England. There is no mention at all of the 'Foudroyant'. This is a very authoritative work so I think it's safe to assume that the vases were shipped on the 'Colossus'.

To anyone interested in the eighteenth century enthusiasm for antiquity and also for geology, natural history etc. I do commend 'Vases and Volcanoes' by Ian Jenkins and Kim Sloan, published by The British Museum Press 1996. ISBN 0-7141-1766-8

It is a beautiful book, 300+pages, with lovely illustrations and has scholarly essays on Sir William Hamilton's interest in classical art and vulcanology, and much detailed information on individual pieces in his collections.

Copies are available from abebooks.co.uk and sometimes on ebay.

Funnily enough, I am also looking for information about Sir William Hamilton's second collection.

I have a letter of Sir William's written from Naples on 18 April 1797 to his bankers in London in which he says:

'I have great hopes that you will receive a very considerable sum - seven thousand pounds - which I expect for my wonderfull [sic] collection of vases being in Treaty with a very great Personage about them....'

I am curious about this 'very great Personage'. I have only just begun my search and would welcome pointers. Since this is the collection that was later sent home on the 'Colossus', presumably the deal fell through; but I'd love to know who was (apparently) keen to buy.

You asked: "Consequently I'm wondering if it's possible to trace the movements of the Foudroyant between February 1800 and March 1801, and would be grateful if anyone could provide a pointer where to begin?"

The movements of the Foudroyant may be found in Peter Goodwin's book "Nelson's ships".

To give them in outline - she had been in the Mediterranean since 1798; in Feb.1800 she was at Palermo; on 9 Feb. they entertained the Sicilian Royal Family onboard. Later sailed to Malta in company with other ships, had an engagemnt with a French squadron under Perree en route, taking le Genereux. At Malta until late March; crusing off C Passaro; another enagement with the French 30 March, Guillaume Tell taken. At Syracuse in April then to Palermo.

Between 7 and 9 June the crew were employed " .. bringing onboard diff't articles belonging to the Queen and to Sr Wm Hamilton...." She embarked the Royal Family (& the Hamiltons) 10 June and sailed to Leghorn to disembark the royal party when Nelson and the Hamiltons also left.

The Fouodroyant remained at Leghorn until August 1800 then moved to Port Mahon and then Gibraltar. The ship remained in the eastern Med, moving between Gibraltar, Port Mahon, Italian coast until December 1801 when she covered Keith's fleet with Abercromby's army embarked, for Egypt.

In Egyptian waters from March 1801, busy bombarding shore positions etc. and supporting the army until May. SHe remained in the Med. until early 1802 when she returned to Plymouth.

Thanks for the 'Vases and Vocanoes' reference, I have that somewhere and will check it out.

Sorry, I need to clarify what I'm looking for better.

According to Roland, The Colossus sank off the Scilly Isles on 10th December 1798, and is well verified from a number of different sources.

SWH thought that his best vases (and paintings?) were onboard, and that they were lost.

In March 1801 Sir William writes that he has found some of his 'best vases and paintings' which had been saved onboard the Foudroyant. These included many that were assumed to have gone down with the Colossus, and most of these were sold at Christies shortly afterwards.

So, assuming these had been placed onboard the Foudroyant and were eventually returned to England, I'm trying to track the ship's movements between the dates above.

A pointer to whether logbooks for the Foudroyant at that period exist, whether they might be viewed if in a museum etc., or anything that could shed light would be absolutely super.

Philonauticus, that's brilliant. Just what I'm looking for.

Many thanks once again.

Hmmm, strange he didn't remember what had been on board the Foudroyant when working out the claim for compensation - it seems he didn't get his facts straight.

What an intriguing thought Tony. The compensation issue rumbled on for a very long time, and it would be worthwhile taking a look at exactly what Sir William claimed compensation for. Just train of thought stuff, but I think it was Cornelia Knight who referred to the number of baggage waggons accompanying the party from Leghorn, and if memory serves me right, some nine large cases of antiquities eventually made their way to Christie's salerooms in March 1801.

Tycho, your reference to the 'great personage' who was in the wings to buy the collection in 1797 is fascinating too. I'm wondering if Sir William was painting a rosier picture; a little blind to cool any concerns his bankers might be having about his finances. It seems he was looking to offload the collection at that point, and did the same thing in March 1801 to Noble (the banker handling affairs in Naples.)

One of the SW biogs refers to him finally selling the vase collection privately to a Mr. Hope in April of 1801. I'll try to look that up too if you don't have the information to hand.

The disappearance and sudden re-appearance of the collection does seem a mite strange.

Tycho

I know I should be familiar with your letter, but could you remind me of the name of the banker(s) Sir William is writing to in 1797?

Memory like a sieve.

Mira:

Sir William's Bankers in London were Messrs Ross & Ogilvy of Argyle Street. He asks them to honour a letter of credit for £1000 which he had given to his banker in Naples, Samuel Ragland, who was on a visit to England, 'placing the same to my account current'. Does this mean he is asking for an overdraft? If so, he might well claim that he had a purchaser for the vases lined up.

It seems Sir William had tried to offload the second collection on various 'great Personages'. He tried the Russian Czar, then, in 1796, the King of Prussia without success; though it seems he had not given up by February 1797 - I've just come across a letter (no 292) in Morrison from William Beckford to Sir William (2 February 1797) in which he says 'Seven thousand pounds is a lumping sum.....if Russia and Prussia will pay the price you expect I suppose they must have them...' then adds a PS 'Must you, in case of sale to Prussia or R.[ussia] deliver them up the whole treasure? Could you not reserve a specimen for which I would gladly treat? but the whole is beyond the powers of sugardom to compass'.

Was he trying to tempt Beckford too?

So maybe Sir William was playing off potential purchasers against each other and was ramping up lukewarm interest in the vases to allay his bankers' fears about his creditworthiness.

The second collection was, as you say, sold to Mr Hope. Sir William was cataloguing it for sale at Christies in 1801 when Mr Hope bought the lot for £4000.

Mira:

This is not directly relevant to your search but I thought this link about the recovery of the 'Colossus' would interest forum members:

www.calvin.standrews.ac.uk/external_rel ... erence=366

If this link doesn't work, just Google 'marine divers recovery of eighteenth century warship' and it's first up.

I think this is the link:
http://calvin.st-andrews.ac.uk/external ... erence=386

For anyone interested in more detail, there is a huge amount here: http://www.cismas.org.uk/downloads.php

The HMS Colossus survey report 2002 is particularly interesting - it is the 75 page report for the project that year, and as well as describing the wreck, the finds, and the recovery of the carving, it also includes background research into events surrounding the wreck, and a transcription of Captain Murray's account of the loss of the ship. The PDF is here: http://www.cismas.org.uk/docs/colossus_ ... t_2002.pdf

There is also a book available from CISMAS.

The Colossus was a sister ship to the Carnatic, Leviathan and Minotaur, all based on the design of the French Courageux.

Thanks for the information on the Colossus salvage project. How well recorded it all is.

There's a little more detail about the dispersal of Sir William's treasures from Palermo.

In addition to the Foudroyant, pictures were also loaded onto HMS Alexander and an unnamed transport was also used.

I'm now hoping to trace the movements of the Alexander up to March 1801, but the transport appears to be a lost cause at the moment.

Any help on the Alexander would be greatly appreciated.

A large consignment of Sir William's goods were due to be landed in England on the 29th September 1800.

Unfortunately, no port or ship is mentioned, and these may have been part of the main general baggage preceeding the Nelson/Hamilton party back to England before their arrival six weeks later.

Mira, here are the Alexander's movements from the Captain's Log:

18/19 Feb 1800 Took part in capture of Le Généreux
Mar/Apr/May 1800 Off Malta
1-9 Jun 1800 Palermo
Then to Leghorn 15 June
21-25 Jun 1800 Destroying batteries at Spechia
27 Jun - 16 July 1800 Leghorn
1 July 1800 Received on board Her Sicilian Majesty's & Lord Nelson's baggage
10 July Her Sicilian Majesty & Royal Family came on board with Lord Nelson
11 July Employed landing Her Sicilian Majesty's luggage
12 July Her Sicilian Majesty & Royal Family landed with Lord Nelson
16 July Sailed
23 July - 26 Oct 1800 Anchored in Port Mahon
Oct/Nov to Malta
20 Nov - 1 Dec Naples Bay
7 Dec 1800 - 15 Mar 1801 Moored La Valette, Malta
Mar/Apr/May 1801 To Alexandria
Jun/July 1801 Malta, Sicily, Leghorn, off Toulon
14 Aug 1801 Anchored in Port Mahon

Many. many thanks Tony.

No further progress on the question of the lost treasures here, but it's useful to be able to discount the Alexander from a British port on 29th September, or any other date in the frame.