Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Sharpshooters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:28 am 
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Further to the comment on another thread about Nelson courting suicide, and the attack from the Redoutable, I recall reading recently (source forgotten!) that the Royal Navy in general and Nelson in particular disapproved of using sharpshooters in the rigging to attack enemy personnel. The view was that one fought the ship, not the individuals on it. Is this the case?

Which brings me to a further point: what was the role of the Royal Marines in a battle situation? They were certainly a deterrent to mutiny at sea and I believe, discouraged men from leaving the gun decks for safety during a battle, but what was their function in a battle if they were not sharpshooters? Did they have a defined and active role? It was Marines who came to Nelson's rescue when he was shot. Was getting the wounded below decks one of their roles, or was it just chance that they were there to help?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:12 pm 
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In action Marines were used to both man the great guns and provide musketry support, although from the deck, not aloft.

Falconer (1815) states - " (in action) The marines are generally quartered on the poop and forecastle or gangway, under the direction of their officers...." and again, when "the drums beat to arms and the boatswain and his mates pipe 'all hands to quarters' ... the marines are drawn up in rank and file, on the quarter deck, poop and forecastle". He goes on to state that when a close engagement begins, it should not just be with a 'vigorous cannonade', but also a volley of musketry.

In the Marine Orders drawn up for the detachment onboard the Mars in 1796, it states that when the drum beats to arms, that the men should go to their assigned stations, either at the great guns or take station as musketeers, when "the officer will parade them, and after loading will cause the arms to be laid in the chest, or in a pile in such places as may be most easy to access, until the distance of the enemy is such that the musketry can be used with precision and effect".

This would all suggest that although sharpshooters in the rigging was not normal practice in the RN, the use of marines as musketeers stationed on the upper deck was.


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 Post subject: Sharpshooters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Tycho,

The marines had varied duties on board ship, but one of their principal duties was to prevent mutiny by the ship's crew, against their officers, they being a disciplined corps - and the seamen of that period generally not being! (It is generally thought by many, for example, that if Bligh had had marines on the famous Bounty voyage, the mutiny might well not have happened. But then the breadfruit expedition was ill thought-out in other areas as well... ) However, as we know, this didn't always work and mutinies did occur! Significantly, on board ship the marines were usually berthed between the men and the officers and they also provided a twenty-four hour guard outside the captain or Admiral's cabin.

Anther principal duty was of course was to provide a fighting force both on board ship and in land engagements, where there expertise was recognised, especially in the latter. They also guarded particularly important parts of the ship, such as that where the rum was stored for obvious reasons and the arms chests. In action they were to prevent the majority of the men from escaping below through the hatches or to parts of the ship where they had no place to be. A powder monkey, for example, was only permitted to pass through his 'badge of office', the cylindrical box in which he carried the charges for the guns and which he brought from the magazine.

With regard to marines in action on board ship, this was laid down and they were to be drawn up on the fo'cs'le and quarterdeck or poop, and I believe there was to be one marine stationed at each gun. At Trafalgar, on her approach to the combined fleet, eight marines and their captain were killed by a double headed shot, I believe on the poop, before Nelson ordered their dispersal around the ship so as not to be a target, although it is doubtful if they were specifically picked out because of the distance. I believe marines were stationed in the tops on some ships, by some captains.

Nelson himself, however, didn't like the practice for two reasons. It could be a fire hazard to the sails and rigging, and thus the ship herself, and he also thought the picking off of individual officers not the way to fight a battle and which may not sway the course of it in any case. Of course it is ironic that he himself died from a sharpshooters ball.

The Royal Marines will forever honour Sergeant Secker for his action in helping to carry the mortally-wounded Nelson down to the orlop, but I think that he just happened to be 'in the right place at the right time.'


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 Post subject: re sharpshooters
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:10 am 
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It was rumoured that Jean-Jaques Lucas of Redoubtable , who was arguably the most able of Villeneuve's captains had done his "homework" well regarding HN's tactics and likely conduct (ie pacing the deck)during engagements, and had specifically recruited expert sharpshooters form the Austrian Tyrol, reputed to be the best in the world.Did Lucas himself instruct them to try to pick off HN specifically if the occasion arose?
Villenueve would have no doubt anticipated HN's tactics ( Ie to break the line himself), so he may have deliberatly deployed Lucas's Redoubtable where he could do most damage to Victory thus giving Lucas's sharpshooters the best chance of assasinating Nelson?
Perhaps it's not so far fetched, for by Trafalgar, the "Nelson Myth" of an unconquerable God like being was firmly entrenched throughout Europe, so could it have been a deliberate plan to destroy the figurehead of HN, once and for all.-t

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:48 am 
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This is a slight digression: but wasn't it a rather bizarre and foolhardy practice to expect officers to assemble on the quarterdeck as they sailed into battle and to forbid them to lie down, unlike the men who were able to lie down by their guns?

It may have been a test of an officer's mettle, but effectively, to my admittedly untutored mind, you are offering a sitting target to the enemy and inviting them to destroy your command post. Madness, surely?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:56 pm 
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Tay, Tycho,

Captain Lucas of the Redoutable was one of the few French officers to be able train his crews to a point of efficiency which, if followed by officers on other ships, just might have swung the battle in favour of the French and Spanish. He, and presumably those under him, particularly exercised the sharpshooters in the tops and others in throwing granades. Several of the latter landed on Victory's decks causing much damage and injury.

I had not heard that he recruited men from Austria, but were they actually Austrian, or French having served in Austria? Another point I have often wondered about, but of which I do not have particular knowledge, was did the French/Austrian sharpshooters have rifles or the more usual common musket? Weapons with rifled barrels would of course have made them that much more accurate, whereas I don't think that muskets neccessarily were at long distances. However we have of course the well-known case of 'Nelson's avenger', Midshipman Pollard, who systematically cleared Redoutable's mizzen top of its marksmen after the fatal shot was fired. This he did by being continuously being supplied with fresh muskets by others, and succeeded in shooting the last man as he came down the shrouds.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:27 pm 
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Tay,

I have just read in Carola Oman that Lucas had Tyrolean marksmen, so you would appear to be right.

You put forward the suggestion that Lucas' ship was especially detailed to go alongside the Victory, so as to employ his special marksmen to kill Nelson. I do not think this was the case, for various reasons. Firstly, the combined fleet left Cadiz in no regular order and took some while to get out of port, then later Villenueve signalled that the fleet should reverse course to get back in again, which would normally have placed them in reverse order. However, in the process, due to their bad seamanship and the fact that the French and Spanish were acting together and in bad faith, what should have been a fairly simple manouver - that of wearing or turning by putting the stern of the ships through the wind - became a rather more complicated one! Gaps began to appear, ships doubled each other and also drifted out of line. I don't think Redoutable was one of these and I believe Lucas attempted to close the gap with the ship ahead, which happened to be Villeneuve's Bucentaure.

Then again, on the approach Nelson was not certain where Villeneuve was in the line since he could not see his flag. Nearing the line he then made a feint to larboard, or port, before turning the other way partly as a ruse, but even then was not sure of getting through since some ships were quite tightly bunched. Hardy asked him where he wished to go through and Nelson said 'It does not signify, take your choice.' Hardy then made it, which happened to be between the Bucentaure and the Redoutable. So I think the fact that he went through just where the Redoutable happened to be, was just by chance and as we know it was a fatal choice.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:45 am 
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Hi,Devenish, Yes, that sounds right! I suggested the possiblity as I had only mused on the idea, and hoped to stimulate the discussion further. I suppose we'll never really know, in spite of all the theories, and even the practical display using a laser to simulate the actual rifleshot, on one of the TV programmes ( was it Trafalgar-the Fatal Flaw?)was indecisive, as one expert claimed it was an aimed shot, the other( ?Dr Colin White?)claimed it was a chance shot. Perhaps we could start a new thread on the subject - I am sure it would be very interesting to hear what others think!-t

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:45 am 
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Not all officers of course were stationed on the quarterdeck in action, since there were many lieutenants and midshipmen stationed on the gun decks and elsewhere, depending on where their duries took them. Those that were on the upper deck, including the fo'c'sle and poop were encouraged to walk about to make themselves less of a target, hence the fact that Nelson and Hardy were walking when he was shot.

It didn't, as we know, always work but at least it would make taking aim a little more difficult. In modern parlance the quarterdeck of a ship was the equivalent of a modern warships 'nerve centre'. This was where the battle was conducted from and one, unavoidably, could expect to get injured or killed. It was also expected that the officers should set an example to the men and the men usually looked to them for direction and strength, so it was not really testing the officer's mettle.


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