Nelson & His World

Tycho,

Thanks for adding that.

Peter Goodwin actually mentions Alec Barlow's suspicions in his own, later, article and also an article by Charles Addis which, apparently, was in the Nelson Dispatch about eleven years ago. Both men he says were on the right track.

I can understand that the whole of the orlop might be regarded as a memorial, since so many men died there, but Peter Goodwin seem pretty specific as to the area, if not the exact spot, where Nelson died. This has much to do with where Nelson was placed when he was carried down from the quarter deck, which in turn takes into account how many injured men came below before him, and the navy's policy of treating men (both officers and men) in strict rotation, when awaiting the surgeon.

Regarding the Turner drawings, two of them appear in 'HMS Victory - Her Construction, Career and Conservation', by Alan McGowan, pp 25-26. One shows a re-rigged Victory sailing up-channel to the Nore, with Nelson's body aboard; the other is of the quarterdeck as you mention, looking aft from the mainmast. Interestingly, it shows the deck completely free of any obstruction or bulkhead, apart from the steering wheels with, in the distance, the stern windows of Hardy's cabin.

Kester

Tycho,

I should perhaps have written that Lieutenant Commander Addis, was the Commanding Officer of Victory 1982-1986, and that Alec Barlow and Peter Goodwin were one-time colleagues.

The correct title of the book I mentioned should be 'HMS Victory - Her Construction, Career and Restoration', not 'Conservation' as I wrote.

Kester

Kester:

many thanks for the info. How about a précis or two? (Cheeky, or what?)

Tycho,

Although I said I perhaps might do this earlier, reconsidering I do not really think a précis from me would do it justice!

Apart from taking some time to do, PG's article in the Mariners Mirror is some twenty five pages long and the text is very detailed and in-depth. There are also a number of detailed drawings, photographs and diagrams, showing in detail the timbers of the Victory at various periods, to prove his points and which you really need to study and refer to as you read the text. Added to that the subject is very technical and I don't pretend to know even half of it myself!

So, apologies. However, I am actually on the point of writing to the man himself, to ask whether we might be able to put his article on the thread. I think we must be patient for a little while longer!

Kester:

only kidding!

It would be great if you could get permission to post PG's article here. Many thanks for your efforts.

I was in the famous Bookbarn on Sunday and came across a shelf of old copies of the Mariner's Mirror for sale but couldn't remember the date of the earlier article!

Tycho,

Phew!

The actual Mariner's Mirror in question is Vol. 85, 1999, No. 3.

If Bookbarn don't have it and you have tried other second hand bookshops, I suppose you could always try to get a back copy from the Society for Nautical Research.

Kester

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Life's little trials.

Unfortunately, the Bookbarn's stretch of Mariners' Mirrors was much earlier than the 1980s, so no luck there.

Mira: they do, apparently, have a Devis sketchbook at the Harris in Preston. Having been told initially that they had nothing, I had a follow-up email from Amanda Draper, the Keeper of Fine Art, saying I had been mis-informed:

'We do have a sketch book believed to have been created by Arthur William Devis - it was on our catalogue system as 'a manuscript notebook'. It is a small book with portraits and figure sketches. Some are worked up in fair detail. If you would like to see the sketch book we will be happy to facilitate a research visit if you care to make an appointment'. (Tel: 01772 904409)

So there's an invitation, Mira - not far from you in Preston, either.

Excellent news Tycho. You're right, Preston is within easy travelling distance and I will certainly take up the offer at the first opportunity,and report back here when mission accomplished.

I'll also do a little digging whilst in Preston; around Devis after the Trafalgar period and look for any indicators if/where other relevant Devis sketchbooks, collections or correspondence might be located.

As it is more years than I care to admit since I visited the Victory, I haven't been able to contribute to this discussion, but I have always felt uneasy about the concept of the 'Nelson Shrine' and where a consecrated stone memorial would take that to. However, I am immensely reassured by an article by Colin White in 'the Kedge Anchor', the newsletter of the 1805 Club.

In the article, 'Nelson in Spanish Stone', Colin White (in his own words) nails his colours to the mast and says that he believes Peter Goodwin has proved his case, and fully answered those who have challenged his research. But the main thrust of the article is about how the Navy have used the space in the cockpit with the new stone plaque in place. He says that the plaque does not identify the precise spot where Nelson died, just saying that it was 'on this deck'. Attention is now focussed on the whole of the port side of the cockpit and and there is another new board commemorating all those that died in the Victory during her active service.

To quote: 'In an imaginative gesture, they [the Navy] have decided to drop the old name for the space, "The Nelson Shrine", and to rename it, "the Victory Memorial". I felt it was a truly historic moment - marking the transition that has been under way for some time now, from an essentially Nelson-centric view of the Trafalgar period, to one that celebrates all the heroes of that "Homeric" age of British naval history.'

Of course I am partisan and have pledged to bring one particular Trafalgar captain further still out of obscurity (to echo more of Colin White's words) and to build on what he and the 1805 Club have done already. But that most definitely does sound like a move in the right direction.

I am still surprised at the choice of stone for the plaque (although there is good reason for the choice, it being Spanish stone from Cape Trafalgar), but I would have thought something carved in wood more appropriate. However, I must reserve judgment until I have visited the ship again.

Many thanks for that post, Tony.

Actually, I have had to re-think my earlier observation that Victory is a warship and not a shrine. There's many a wreck at the bottom of the ocean that has been declared a war grave. So it is entirely fitting that Victory, though mercifully still above, if not in the water, should also commemorate the dead.

Just though that I should let you know that I have had, as yet, no response from Peter Goodwin, re. reproducing his article on the resiting of Nelson's memorial. I will try again.

Incidentally there is, apparently, to be an article in the next edition of the NS Nelson Dispatch, although I don't think by PG, about the memorial.

Kester