Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Moving to the Right
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:29 pm 
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Today's Times (29 May, page 23) reports that the plaque marking the spot where Nelson died in Victory is in the wrong place. A new memorial, in the right place, will be unveiled soon.

Read all about it at www.timesonline.co.uk and use 'Nelson' as your search term. The item is second in the list.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:35 pm 
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I am not sufficiently informed to comment on the opinion that Nelson died in a different spot from the traditionally recognised one or on the decision to move the memorial plaque. What I do find rather alarming, having just re-read the Times report, is that the new memorial will be ‘consecrated’. Is this just a slip of the pen? Did the writer mean simply ‘unveiled’. I do hope so.

I appreciate that conservationists have a difficult task in reconciling restoration with authenticity – metal masts? Nylon ropes? - and that deciding where Nelson actually died might be contentious. But we must not lose sight of the fact that Victory is, after all, a warship, not a memorial chapel, and any restoration should contribute to our understanding of that function and not attempt to shift our perception of what the ship’s role was. A simple, unobtrusive plaque informing visitors of where Nelson died is acceptable. Accretions like consecrated memorials made of stone from Trafalgar etc. are, I think, superfluous.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Quite a lot has already been written about this 'bone of contention' which is what it seems to be turning into, but if it is backed up by historical fact and knowledgeable deduction then I see no real reason for not believing it.

That the place where Nelson died is now be in a slightly different spot, might be difficult by some to come to terms with, but is that really a valid reason for not accepting it if it is known to be wrong? I'm sure something along these lines was probably said in about 1908, when it was discovered that up until then the famous signal flown on Trafalgar Day had been hoisted using the wrong signal code and it was duly changed to the one we see today. There's also the 'old chestnut' about the fact that Victory's decks weren't painted red for the obvious reason - and people saw red about that. These changes happen in the search for the truth.

The Victory's curator, Peter Goodwin, has also been unfairly maligned over both this subject and regarding what he has done to the Victory in recent years. To my mind he has done a great job in making the ship and the navy of Nelson's time more understandeable to the general public, without making her a theme park. I have known the ship for many years and can honestly say that I think she is in the best shape she has ever been in. I am not sure either that this is all down to Peter Goodwin, since he is only one member of the Victory Technical Advisory Committee which decide on all aspects of the ship and her conservation, the other members being drawn form the Society for Nautical Research, the NMM and other bodies. The placing of the new plaque, although it might have been the curator's brain child, must surely have had the sanction of the other members of the Committee.

I have no worries over the plaque being consecrated. This is after all the place where Nelson, a christian, died as also did many others. Consecration is also quite usual in the dedication of other monuments, forms of transport etc., so why not here? It is surely appropriate. If one is not a christian, why should it cause alarm since it means nothing? I have noticed also that when in the vicinity of the cockpit, visitors become rather quiet and at one time the naval ratings who took one round the ship always removed their caps at this point.

Kester


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:23 am 
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Thanks for that thought-provoking response, Kester.

As I said, ignorance precludes me from commenting on the technicalities of restoration or where Nelson is said to have died, but I've been trying to examine a little more deeply my own feelings of resistance to the idea of a 'consecrated spot' marking Nelson's place of death and I still haven't worked out why. His death, and its protracted nature in Victory, and the detail in which it was portrayed in words and art afterwards, are a much more profound culmination to an extraordinary life than say, immediate extinction. And I, as an ardent admirer of Nelson, should, by rights, want that historically and iconically significant event to be commemorated. So why does the idea of a consecrated memorial of imported stone unsettle me? Firstly, as I said in my earlier post, that we mustn't lose sight of Victory's essential function as a warship; all the efforts of the restoration project is to inform our understanding of that. But also, I think, because I personally find that leaving something for my imagination to do enhances an experience of this kind. I remember on my first visit to Victory feeling rather annoyed by the large, ornately framed picture representing the death scene that was propped alongside the small plaque marking the spot. I felt quite insulted that I wasn't expected to be able to conjure the scene for myself. I really felt the empty space would have spoken more eloquently to me. But this is just a personal reaction and only serves to point up the difficulties confronting restorers of historically resonant places - you simply can't please everyone as we are all looking for different things - the naval historian may want total authenticity; the educationist will want a visit to be an informative experience which might involve accretions that are not part of the initial structure; the dreamy poetry lover (me, for example) wants to be free to give full rein to the imagination without too much intrusive stimulation. So perhaps we just have to be tolerant, enjoy what's there as far as we can and be grateful for what has been preserved.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:05 am 
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I don't think, in any sense, is the Victory not being treated as a warship - all of the restoration and reconstruction to date emphasise that.

Nor, I believe, is she becoming a chapel or shrine. That the part of the orlop where Nelson died, and let's not forget many others, may to some extent be treated like one, is natural seeing what took place there. The reverence in which the spot is generally held, even to the general public somehow becoming quieter there than in other parts of the ship, the guides removing their caps, etc., for me add to the atmosphere. The nearest it gets to being a chapel though, surely, is when wreaths are laid on Trafalgar Day, but even then it is far from that.

The presence of the Devis painting is I think appropriate, seeing it was of the (then) actual spot, and is there to give members of the general public an idea of what the scene was like at the time. Perhaps if they have difficulty imagining it, it helps, although I think it is generally accepted that the deckhead is painted too high - I seem to remember there was a reason why Devis painted it like that. It would appear, too, that it was this painting that set Peter Goodwin off on his quest.

However, I can understand if you find all these things off-putting to your imagination. They don't necessarily annoy me and obviously the powers-that-be on the Victory don't have the intention of invading anyone's privacy.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:26 pm 
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I have now read Peter Goodwin's article in the Mariners Mirror, of August 1999, and the subsequent refutation of his claims by a man named Heinrich Seimers in a later edition. Although the latter puts up a good case against Mr Goodwin's evidence, the curator would seem to have some strong claims to being correct. On balance, I tend towards Peter Goodwin's assessment.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Kester:

do you have the time and inclination to give a brief précis of the arguments by Peter Goodwin and Heinrich Seimers for those who might not have access to the Mariner's Mirror?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Tycho,

I somehow thought you might ask that! However, rather than me précising it, I'll try and post the articles themselves. Failing that l'll have to do as you say! Watch this space...

Kester


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:22 pm 
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Kester:

Many thanks for that.

I recall reading that Turner visited Victory at Sheerness as she returned from Trafalgar with Nelson's body still aboard, and on looking at my copy of 'Turner in the Tate Collection' by David Blaney Brown, I find that there is a 'Nelson' sketchbook in the Tate archive which contains Turner's sketches and memoranda that he made during the visit. He also interviewed the crew. Of course, his own painting of Trafalgar shows Nelson dying on the quarterdeck, but it is more than possible that he went down to the orlop deck and might have noted in his memoranda the spot where Nelson died. It is an intriguing thought. I've dropped an email to the Tate to see if they can offer any enlightenment. Watch this space.....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Tycho,

That's an interesting point about Turner, who of course visited the Victory for his own painting. I would say that it is very likely that he went down to the orlop, even though it was not going to be part of his own painting. So soon after Trafalgar, it would be the natural thing to do.

I wouldn't mind betting too that he and Devis knew each other, people usually do know others in their profession, so that puts in mind a question: could they have possibly have corresponded regarding the two sites: that of Nelson's being shot, the quarterdeck, and his death, the orlop? Might be a bit far fetched, but you never know - and perhaps we'll never know.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:22 am 
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This is from the NMM site, regarding Arthur Devis' painting 'Death of Nelson' which they own:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson ... ID=BHC2894

As you will see it is very detailed description, both as to how the artist painted it and the allegories contained within it. It would also appear to reinforce Peter Goodwin's opinions about the changing of the site of Nelson's death. With regard to the painting, click on it to get a larger image, he particularly drew attention to the ship's timbers against which Nelson is resting, and also the proximity of the cable tier to the right.

I am hoping at some stage to be able to reproduce Peter Goodwin's article, which appeared in the Mariner's Mirror, in full here. It is naturally quite technical and detailed, but I am sure many will find it of interest.

Tycho,

As Devis sailed with the ship to the Nore, one wonders whether he and Turner could possibly have actually met on board.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:16 pm 
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I have just had a reply from the Tate saying that two studies for the death of Nelson from Turner's sketch book may be seen on line. Unfortunately, the links given didn't work, but the studies can be seen [Refs. Finberg LXXX1X DO 5481 & DO 5482] by visiting the Tate's website www.tate.org.uk, then clicking on 'search collections', entering 'Turner' and 'sketch for Death of Nelson' as search terms.

The drawings (rather faint) are of the quarterdeck of Victory - so no clues given about the actual place of Nelson's death; though there may be further evidence in the rest of the drawings in the sketch book which one can view by appointment in the study room at the Tate studyroom@tate.org.uk

Even if there is no information to add to the debate, it would be a remarkable experience, I think, to have access to this very close and immediate link with Nelson's return home from Trafalgar, seen through the eyes of our greatest (IMHO) artist.


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 Post subject: Turner sketches at the Tate
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:48 am 
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That's fantastic news about the Turner sketches at the Tate, and I'll definitely make a visit to view on the next trip to London. Thank you for that.

Does anyone know what happened to - or the whereabouts - of the Arthur Devis sketchbooks? I've often seem them mentioned, but never come across a source for their location.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:55 am 
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In our ongoing investigation, there is this from the Victory website:

http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?op ... 0&Itemid=1

I am still hoping to be able to post Peter Goodwin's original article from the Mariners Mirror.

Kester


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:46 pm 
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Mira:

the Devis family of artists originated in Preston, I have discovered, and the Harris Museum and Art Gallery has a large collection of their work. A former curator of the Gallery ,Sydney Herbert Paviere, published several works about them. I have dropped an email to the Harris asking if they have the Devis sketchbooks, and if not, whether they know their whereabouts.

Devenish:

I came across an on-line newspaper article about a man who worked in Victory and came to the same conclusion as Peter Goodwin, but some years before. Apparently, he published his conclusions in the Mariner's Mirror as long ago as 1986.

www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/I-knew-20-yea ... 4162112.jp

There's a suggestion in the newspaper article that the whole of the orlop deck should be regarded as a memorial since it's not possible to pinpoint conclusively the exact spot where Nelson died.


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