Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Landlubber's riddle: time + distance = speed?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:19 pm 
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Location: England
Here's a riddle for sea dogs out there who know about wind and weather and how far an 80 gun ship is likely to travel in a few hours.

In both cases, it's February, the wind is fresh to begin with, but mainly light airs. The port is Palermo, the destination Messina, and the ship is the Foudroyant.

Scenario A. Said ship leaves port and travels 8 leagues in 19.5 hours.

Scenario B. Ship leaves port and travels 8 leagues in 7.5 hours.

Given the variations of wind and weather and the vagueness of the info I have, just a 'more likely' or 'less likely' would be great. Anything more certain than that would be brilliant!

Hope a kind sailor can lend a helping hand to this befuddled landlubber!

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Jacqui


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 Post subject: Re: Landlubber's riddle: time + distance = speed?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Jacquie,

When younger I did a reasonable amount of sailing on square riggers and traditional vessels, although I didn't practice that much navigation – it was rather more pulling on ropes, setting/furling sail, steering, etc. However I did learn a little, even though I have forgotten most of it! Btw, I think you'll find that speed equals distance divided by time. I think either of your scenarios would be possible, although I am more inclined towards B.

I believe eight leagues works out to approximately 27 nautical miles and dividing this by 7.5 hrs, as in scenario B, would give an average speed of 3.6 knots (A knot of measurement is equal to one nautical mile per hour). In scenario A the speed would work out at just over one knot which, although still feasible, would seem to be rather slow. As you imply too, other factors have to be taken into account, including the wind direction and strength (bearing in mind that at sea it is often not constant in either direction or force), tides and currents, the amount of sail set, the ship's course, etc.

I have not sailed in the Med. but it is subject to violent localised squalls. These partly derive from variously named winds which funnel southwards down the various river valley's of continental Europe, accelerating as they do so, and those blowing northwards from Africa. These then meet with the currents of the Mediterranean which, if opposed often create rough seas. One of these winds is known as the Mistral, which periodically blows down the French Rhone Valley, into the Bay of Lyons. No doubt you will recall, that it was such a wind that practically dismasted Nelson's Vanguard just before the Nile.

A map or chart of Sicily shows Messina to be almost due east from Palermo, at a distance of approximately 107 nautical miles. It might be thought that a ship would be able to just sail along the north coast to her destination at Messina, however this would probably not be possible due to another Mediterranean wind the Levanter, which blows in approximately the opposite direction! No sailing ship, of course, can sail directly into wind and a square rigged ship can probably approach no nearer to it's eye than 65-70°, and would normally have to resort to tacking. This procedure puts the wind first on one side of the vessel then the other, on estimated 'legs' to enable the ship to reach her windward destination.

The proximity of the Sicilian coast on the vessel's starboard side would very likely also prevent a ship from doing this, and I believe she would therefore have to initially head out to sea, roughly on a course for Naples on the Italian mainland. (The positions of Palermo, Naples and Messina conveniently form a rough triangle.) At some point, she would then alter course to make for Messina. Heading towards Italy would be actually an advantage, since initially the Levanter would be on the ship's starboard beam and, from a study of the Mediterranean winds, it would seem likely that further off the coast she would be able to pick up a wind from a more southerly direction. This would bring it over the vessel's quarter, a position more advantageous for a square rigged ship.

Peter Goodwin, in his book 'Nelson's Ships', gives the sailing abilities of all of Nelson's ships in the appendices, which are compiled from actual logs. Those for the Foudroyant, whilst not exceptional, imply that she had average sailing qualities.

As said, I am no navigator, but I hope this helps. In passing, may I also add belated congratulations for your Dispatch article, a subject I knew very little about. I believe I know rather more now! I will also look out for your article in the Trafalgar Chronicle – besides that from our 'eminent contributor'!

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Kester.


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 Post subject: Re: Landlubber's riddle: time + distance = speed?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:09 pm 
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Kester, I'm being a bit picky here, but I would assume that as far as the 18th C RN was concerned, a league was a nautical league of exactly three nautical miles. If so, 8 leagues is 24 nautical miles, and the speed in Scenario B is almost exactly three knots - which if anything strengthens your argument. The trouble is that, as you say, we don't know the wind direction and whether the Foudroyant was tacking. I am also not sure that we know whether the distance of 8 leagues refers to the distance covered (including zigzags if tacking) or the distance from start to finish as the crow flies. Playing devil's advocate, that could possibly make Scenario A equally likely if the wind direction was unfavourable.

Jacqui, the answer should of course be in the ship's log at the NA.

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Tony


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 Post subject: Re: Landlubber's riddle: time + distance = speed?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Tony,

My apologies and you are right, a sea league is 3 nautical miles which would indeed give an average speed of 3 knots.

I have been reading more about the Levanter, which apparently blows more strongly in the summer months. Since the scenario here is in February, it would presumably have been somewhat weaker but even so, without further information, I am not convinced that the Foudroyant would have been tacking due to the nearness of the coastline, as mentioned. I am still more inclined to think that she would initially have been heading out to sea on course for the Italian mainland. She would have had the eastward-blowing Levanter on her starboard side, perhaps a couple of point abaft the beam, before picking up the more southerly wind. Peter Goodwin’s book indicates that this was also the Foudroyant’s best point of sailing, which I am sure Berry and the master would have known.

I agree that scenario A is also quite possible, given that it is February and the effects of the Levanter may not have been not be so pronounced. As you also say, without further details a lot of the above is speculation, but recourse to the log should give some answers.

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Kester.


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 Post subject: Re: Landlubber's riddle: time + distance = speed?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:18 am 
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Posts: 284
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Kester and Tony - thank you. Enormously.

I've read your replies through half a dozen times, and though I'm definitely lost at sea when it comes to navigation, your answers are as clear as can be. Evocative too.

I was using a transcript/segment of Nelson's sea journal to gauge the info in my question, and think he may have recorded the time of sailing (1:30am) as the previous day. Hence the difference in hours.

It'll be a while before I can access any records at TNA (thanks Tony), but for now, this is great.

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Jacqui


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