Nelson & His World

I'm very interested in language and word derivations. On a language forum I look in on there is a discussion about the origin of the phrase 'the whole nine yards' meaning 'completely'; 'the whole lot.' I won't list all the suggestions, but one member said that it 'could relate to the age of sail' but doesn't say anything further.

Can anyone elucidate?

Tycho,

This expression comes, I think, from the fact that a sailing ship before the later nineteenth century normally had nine yards permanently aloft, have a look at the 'Victory', although lighter sails and yards - such as royals - could be set from the deck.

There were three yards on each of the three masts, fore main and mizzen, and they (and their attendant sails) were named in ascending order, course, topsail and topgallant - with the prefix fore, main or mizzen, to indicate which mast they were set on, i.e. main course, fore topsail, etc.

So, when a ship was under full sail, a she was thus under the 'whole nine yards' or, as you say, 'the whole lot'!

Kester

Many thanks, Kester, for the whole nine yards of comprehensive explanation!

It makes much more sense than some of the other suggestions e.g. the nine yards of a Vickers machine gun ammunition belt (which wasn't nine yards long, apparently, though the Browning was.) Or that the expression comes from American football.

Strangely enough, I have never heard the expression used in England. I first came across it in Boston in the company of ( i.e. during a 'hoolie' with) some wild Irish-Americans! I will say no more.

Tycho,

True, it seems to be more of an American expression, but that's as I've heard it. I am sure there must be other explanations, as there usually are with these sayings, but since many of them come from the sea I like to think this ones does. Not that I'm biased or anything...

Incidentally, you do surprise me - a knowledge of guns, and a wild night on the town with some Irish-Americans! And there was me thinking you were a quiet lot down in Somerset!

Kester

Kester:

I was only passing on the comments of others about Vickers and Browning machine guns - they are mysteries to me. And just to reassure you, I am indeed a sober Somerset matron nowadays - my nights on the town are part of 'the dear dead days beyond recall' when 'summer sang in me a little while that in me sings no more.' Alas.

Kester & Tycho, the nine yards on a fully rigged ship sounds a highly plausible explanation, but this seems to be one of those explanations for which there is no documentary evidence. Apparently no printed example has been found from before the 1960s, and a search in Google Books bears this out - not too promising if the origin is from the days of sailing ships.

Thinking about it, the explanation doesn't ring very true to me. It is nowhere near as good an expression as 'in full sail' or 'with all sails set'. The yards are not the first thing I would comment on when seeing a ship under full sail. I'm not convinced the expression would have caught on if that was its origin!

Well, that would seem to be me shot down in flames - although probably not with the whole nine yards of a machine gun belt.

Tony, I agree, 'in full sail' or 'with all sails set' would be the obvious thing to say, since the sails would be the thing one noticed most rather than the yards.

Having 'googled' around, it would seem as though it's one of those expressions which defies pinning down, although it does sound American.

Kester