Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:06 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Appointments
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:23 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
How were officers appointed to specific commands? Certain appointments seemed to cause friction, for example, both Sir John Orde and Sir William Parker complained bitterly when Nelson was given the role of pursuing the French fleet prior to the Nile. In Orde's case, his sense of grievance became almost a monomaniac obsession. Their objections are expressed in terms such as as 'injury', 'degradation', 'feelings more hurt than I can describe'. Was this because they were senior to Nelson and felt this entitled them to the appointment? Or that their services merited it?

How much discretion did the Admiralty have in such appointments? Were any rules or conventions broken or bent to appoint Nelson in this case?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
I think there are several layers to that question, Tycho.

The simple part is that the Admiralty appointed officers to a ship and assigned the ship to a station, and the commander in chief at that station assigned officers or ships there to specific duties.

But officers would expect seniority to play a large part in both the admiralty's and the commander in chief's decisions.

Sir William Parker and Sir John Orde were both senior to Nelson and that was the prime cause of the bad feeling over St Vincent's assignment of Nelson to detached service in the Mediterranean. No doubt they also felt that their services merited their own appointment. St Vincent reacted in his usual heavy handed way by insisting that his subordinates did not have the right to question his decisions. It might have been more politic to have revealed that Spencer (1st Lord of the Admiralty) had suggested Nelson for that particular service (although St Vincent had already detached Nelson with three ships before he received that particular letter).

St Vincent was of course free to ignore Spencer's suggestion, but would perhaps have given it due consideration, along with all the other requests for patronage which went both ways...

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:36 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Many thanks for that, Tony.

It is interesting that officers felt able to complain to the Admiralty about decisions taken by their commander in chief on a given station. That's what confused me: the complaints I quoted were from letters that went from Orde and Parker to Spencer at the Admiralty, and I assumed they were complaining directly to him about his decisions, not about St. V.'s on station. That explains Orde's fanatical pursuit of St. V. afterwards.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Orde and St Vincent
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
Sir John Orde was apparently so incensed at being 'passes over' by St Vincent that the story goes that Orde later challenged ST V to a duel, which the old sea dog sensibly refused!-t
'

_________________
Hello all - to old friends, and I hope, many new iones!! Great to be on board, and congratulations to all involved with what will be , I know, a great, lively new site, and as they say, " God bless all who sail in her! - tay


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:27 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Evelyn Berckman in her biography of St Vincent, gives fuller details about Orde's challenge.

'The Times of October 5th 1799 carried a curious item. Sir John Orde had been arrested at four in the morning at Durant's hotel by special constables Townshend and Sayers. A local JP names Ford, tipped off about the challenge and about the rendezvous chosen, had 'intervened to frustrate the intention'......Townshend hung on to Orde, in spite of outraged protests, until 11 o'clock in the morning. He had wished to send Sayers at once to arrest St Vincent before he could leave his home, but Orde, greatly a gentleman, objected; such an invasion before dawn might alarm the delicate and ailing Lady St Vincent [what about hoping to kill her husband??] ...still detained by officers, he capitulated at last and gave bail for keeping the peace. At once, Townshend, energetic arm that he was, posted off to the country, found St Vincent waiting upon the duelling ground chosen in Brentwood, and arrested him too. In the end, the Earl also gave bail to keep the peace'

Another report about this curious incident that I have read somewhere (can't recall) was that the King expressly forbade St. V. to take part in the duel which gave him the opportunity to refuse.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Another report said that St Vincent was found at home preparing to go out to meet Orde. Another report says that St Vincent had initially declined the challenge but agreed to be bound over.

After both parties were bound over, Spencer wrote to the King saying he thought the duel had only been temorarily prevented, and asked the King to signify his wish that the Admiralty should command St Vincent not to accept the challenge.

On the question of Admiralty appointments, there were of course exceptions. For example, frigate squadrons were sometimes under the orders of the admiralty rather than the orders of the CiC of the relevant station (usually the channel fleet). This meant they did not have to share their prize money with the flag officers of the fleet. Another exception was Sir Sidney Smith appointed to his duties in the Eastern Mediterranean by the Admiralty, much to the annoyance of both Nelson and St Vincent.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 93 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group