Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:42 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:26 am
Posts: 82
The plot thickens!


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Jacqui

What have you started here??!!

For once I was prepared to take my sceptic's hat off and now it's firmly back on my head again LOL

As I say unfortunately I haven't got time to go into this in any greater depth. But all these letters can't be the real deal can they?

MB

P.S. Sorry I missed the "greaseproof paper" reference in the catalogue. So it's 100% not some sort of tissue paper then.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:30 pm
Posts: 284
Location: England
Yes, they can't all be genuine Nelson letters. It's a strange one isn't it.

As for this latest auction, it seems the family selling the item aren't clear about the origin, and a bit of guesswork has gone into the provenance:

Quote:
Provenance: The letter is entered for auction by The Lloyd family of Dolobran, Quakers, iron merchants and founder partners of Taylors and Lloyds bank, now Lloyds TSB. However, an article in The New York Times of December 31st 1911 states that this letter 'NEW NELSON LETTER' was newly discovered by a West Hartleypool gentleman, an ancestor of Thomas Lloyd. It is not known who this ancestor is but it is presumed that it was returned / purchased by the Dolobran Lloyds at this time.

As for grease proof paper, here's the auctioneers' description:

Quote:
Written in black ink on grease proof paper.
The letter is written in Nelson's left hand while he was recuperating in Bath from losing his arm.

Resorting to the internet for a history of 'grease proof paper' - or wax paper as it seems to have been called:
Quote:
The practice of oiling parchment or paper in order to make it semi-translucent or moisture-proof goes back at least to medieval times. Paper impregnated or coated with purified beeswax was widely used throughout the 19th century to retain or exclude moisture, or to wrap odorous products. Gustave Le Gray introduced the use of waxed paper for photographic negatives in 1851. Natural wax was largely replaced for the making of wax paper (or paraffine paper) after Herman Frasch developed ways of purifying paraffin and coating paper with it in 1876.

It looks like a lot of questions are hanging over this particular letter and its sale.

Though the estimate is low (for an original Nelson letter) - £2,000 to £4,000 is a very large price tag considering the question marks mounting up. What's the position of a potential buyer, if it's sold as genuine and turns out to be a fac-simile?

_________________
Jacqui


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Oh dear - I can't help myself getting sucked into interesting conundrums such as this.

As I have said on previous posts I have access to a newspaper database - mainly 19th century newspapers but some 20th century ones gradually being added.

Anyway I did a search using the 2 phrases "Lord Nelson" and "Thomas Lloyd" and I threw in a couple of random words "letter" and "Bath".

There were no results for the 19th century but for the 20th century 4 results.

1902: A NELSON LETTER. INTERESTING DISCOVERY. In cataloguing for sale a valuable private library etc. etc.

1911: LETTER WRITTEN BY LORD NELSON Found by Gentleman at West Hartlepool. A West Hartlepool gentleman, in rummaging amongst some old papers etc. etc. This is the same one that is referred to in the New York newspaper.

1943: MR J E JOHNSON, of Fishponds, has passed on for inspection an original letter written by Lord Nelson at Bath. A friend of mine who lost her husband some time ago found the letter when looking through his books and papers. etc. etc.

1949: Considerable interest has been aroused by the discovery recently at a bombed site in the Liverpool dock area, of a letter by Lord Nelson etc. etc.

They are all copies of the same letter.

So John Sugden is quite correct. But I wonder what the story is behind this? It reminds me of those facsimile copies of the Times newspaper reporting the Battle of Trafalgar that were sold quite openly - but every now and then one turns up and is believed to be an original. But I can't recall multiple copies of any other Nelson letter or deliberate forgeries for that matter.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Forgeries of Nelson letters do exist - some of them very good indeed. One of the curators at Portsmouth told me he had seen several forged copies of the same letter that were totally convincing - apart from the watermark on the paper, which was post 1805!

There was another case of multiple copies of Nelson letters - not deliberate forgeries - that were produced by the trustees who set up a fund in Victorian times to give financial support to Horatia. All subscribers were presented with facsimiles of Nelson's letters to Horatia in which he declares himself her father. Consequently, there are a number of these copies still extant though the location of the original is unknown. A letter which was thought to be one of these was offered for sale as an original on ebay but was withdrawn in a subsequent furore.

This latest one, though, I confess I'm totally flummoxed.

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Hi Anna

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware of either of those instances. You don't think that the ones at Portsmouth could be more copies of this letter do you? Only joking - but just the teeniest bit serious! :)

I have just been looking at the one that is currently for sale against the one that sold at Sotheby's. As well as the different paper and different layout the writing does appear to me to be very slightly different. So I don't think one is a copy taken directly off the other. Does anyone else agree with me there?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:19 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
The mention of 'greaseproof paper' set me thinking. Could this letter actually be a microfilmed copy?

I recall that my mother had a letter sent by my father when he was serving in North Africa in 1942/43 during WW2 that was very small and had a 'greaseproof' or 'waxed' paper finish. I did a quick Google and discovered that it was actually a microfilmed copy of the original which had been reduced to a quarter of its original size to reduce bulk. The miniature letter was then forwarded to the addressee.

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/exhibits/2d2a_vmail.html

This Nelson letter has not been reduced in size but it does seem to have a similar finish to that of our microfilmed one.

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:46 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Jacqui's quote:

Quote:
Nelson to Lloyd, 29/1/1798, John Rylands Library. The letter survives in multiple copies.


That note is interesting: does it suggest that the original does not survive?

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
tycho wrote:
Jacqui's quote:

Quote:
Nelson to Lloyd, 29/1/1798, John Rylands Library. The letter survives in multiple copies.

That note is interesting: does it suggest that the original does not survive?


Hi Anna

I suppose it could be interpreted that they are all copies or that there is an original and multiple copies. Difficult to say.

One small observation from me this morning. If you look at the letter that sold at Sotheby's New York http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/nelson,-horatio-207-c-536882ee02 there appears to be a small number (43?) written in the top right hand corner. That looks to me like the sort of reference number that is often written on documents in archives. i.e. it would be document 43 in a box of say 50 items. If I am correct then it looks as if that item was once in an archive or it is a facsimile copy of one. It doesn't really develop our understanding of what is going on here but I just throw it in as an observation.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 19
You may find this interesting. I have a copy of this letter. It is on thickish paper with a watermark J WHATMAN 1806 (a very well known and esteemed paper manufacturer) which obviously gives the game away. Though the writing is in Nelson's familiar left handed style it is obviously written in another's hand, being too regular in it's spacing and not as "shakey" as the original which is for sale. Why somebody sat down and copied this letter in or soon after 1806 is anybodies guess. Interesting though!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Interesting indeed, RHP. Dare I ask? Did you pay £4000 for it?

There have obviously been second thoughts about the sale. I clicked again on the link that Vicki supplied to refresh my memory only to see that the lot has been withdrawn:

http://data.bidmaster.co.uk/halls/bidca ... &LotRef=90

So we were not the only ones asking questions; or maybe we were? Well, I wasn't asking questions until Galiano voiced doubts. Well done, sleuths. (Sounds of chomping as Tycho eats hat.)

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 19
No Anna, not £4,000, just a relatively small sum. The seller was very genuine and listed the letter accurately as a very old copy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:18 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Well, that's a relief, RHP!

Has anyone picked up anything more about the withdrawal?

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:45 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
I came across this link re: the withdrawal of the letter from sale. It's not very informative though. I think there might be more to unfold.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26369963

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nelson letter for sale
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 151
I wonder if they saw this thread? :lol:

_________________
Vicki


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 75 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group