Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Re: HMS Victory's 'hideous orange' paint
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Before we go any further I really should declare a special interest in this thread - as I actually worked in the paint industry for well over 20 years. (Early 80s into the 2000s). However I was on the admin/financial side so didn't need to know too much about the technicalities of what was going on out in our factories. However me being naturally inquisitive/nosey, I did try to gen myself up as much as possible - as far back as the earl C20 which is where I discovered that paint was being sold by weight in this paste format. But I never went back much earlier than that so find everything posted here really fascinating.

Just one comment from left field. i.e. everything in the early days was based on natural ingredients: Varnishes made from gum resins; linseed oil; natural turpentine from pine trees etc. etc. This has made me wonder what paint actually smelt like in those days. Could it be that actually smelt quite nice?

Having said that I don't know what natural turpentine (as opposed to turps substitute) smells like - so perhaps I should check that out first! :)

MB


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Victory's 'hideous orange' paint
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Thanks for that most useful reference, Brian, help on sources is most welcome indeed. I had come across snippets from it in my rather haphazard Googling on this topic (conducted mostly on a tablet in odd moments and on train journeys and so on), but hadn’t downloaded the book or read the full section on painting – which clearly I should have done! I think it’s worth posting the section here, as, dating from 1804, it includes instructions for mixing paint, preferred colour schemes, and a mention of captains paying privately for a paler yellow:
Quote:
REMARKS ON PAINTING A SHIP.
If a ship is alongside a hulk in harbour, painting her should be deferred till the last thing, and then, if time and circumstances will permit, she should be hawled off to moorings, and ship keepers only left on board. If application be made, painters* will be sent from the dock-yard to paint her, but as it may be performed equally as well by the ship's painters, it is better to demand the paint, and have it done by the persons on board. Great pains should be taken in mixing the paint, which should be tried on a clean board previous to laying it on, recollecting that the colour will always appear two or three shades darker than when dry. If the paint is mixed too thick it soon dries, but peals off, and does not go so far as it would if mixed thinly. If, however, it has not a proper consistence, it will neither make a good appearance nor last long, and, from the quantity of oil, is a long time drying; a painter, or man of sufficient judgment is, therefore, required to mix the paint. Spirit of turpentine is frequently put in to make it dry soon, but the sun always extracts the- spirit, and makes the work blister.

* Ships are painted by contract, and unless the captain of a private ship will pay the painters for additional white to be mixed with the yellow, it is so very dark a colour that it makes the ship look very dirty and dismal.

The following is a simple, easy, and approved, method, of mixing paint. Take the proportions of yellow and white paint, oil, and litharge, that will make it of the intended colour and consistence; put them all together into one of the boatswain's fish kettles, stir them well up, and boil the composition; then pour it off", strain it through a bread bag, and lay it on warm; the warmer it is laid on the better. Care should be taken to mark the lines before commencing*, that no mistake may occur. If a streak is painted, it should be done first with the upper works; the sides should be well scraped, and where any grease may have lodged, it should be scrubbed with warm lime water, and not a particle of dirt or dust suffered to remain.

* Small battens, or sinnet, is generally nailed on, to point out the lines as a guidance to paint by.

Various modes are pursued in painting ship's sides; but the following appears the most general and approved. A yellow streak, from the ribbands of the channels forward and aft, cutting a line through the ports; another streak on the moulding above it. The broad yellow from the lower part of the upper deck port holes to the lower part of the quarter gallery; the lower part of the yellow to be painted in a straight line; the upper part with a small sheer, carried entirely forward to the cutwater. Frigates are' generally painted with a bright yellow side, and black upper works; the yellow about two inches above the upper part of the ports, and carried down to the line of the lower part of the quarter gallery. The muzzles of the guns and port-cells black. Tomkins in the waist white, and those belonging to the guns on the quarter-deck black, to prevent the height and irregularity of the carronades from, being observed. The bends blacked with varnish and oil, mixed and boiled; otherwise, with varnish and tar. The first mixture carries the best appearance, but is not so durable, or serviceable, as the latter: but the three different compositions are frequently united together, and this, perhaps, forms the best.

This general rule may always be observed.—If it is desired to make a ship look long and low, the yellow part should be carried low down and painted narrow; if, on the contrary, it is wished to make her look lofty and short, the yellow part shsuld be broad and carried high up.

Getting back to Nelson’s captains, Brian Lavery’s ‘Shipboard Life and Organisation 1731-1815’ contains a couple of references to paint in carpenter’s and boatswain’s accounts around Trafalgar:
Quote:
Boatswain’s Accounts. HMS Britannia, September 1805:

On the mast and under the top:
Paint, Yellow 30lb
Oil, linseed 1 gall

Carpenter’s Accounts, HMS Africa, October 1805:

To repairing the weather work in and out board:
Paint, Yellow 180lb
Paint, White 90lb
Paint, Black, 56lb
Oil, linseed 12 gall
Brushes 6
Tools 2

To black the waist:
Black varnish 24 gall
Brushes 2
Used for the second coat, the former washed off with the rain:
Paint, Yellow 100lb
Brushes 7
Oil, Linseed 8 gall
Interestingly, as recommended in ‘Observations and Instructions…’, there is no mention of turpentine (which I gather is used as a drying agent, rather than to thin the paint).

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 Post subject: Re: How were warships painted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Mark, perhaps this will help you gen up still further: published in 1804, 'The Painter and Varnisher's Guide: Or, A Treatise, Both in Theory and Practice, on the Art of Making and Applying Varnishes, on the Different Kinds of Painting, and on the Method of Preparing Colours, both Simple and Compound...': http://books.google.co.uk/books?jtp=i&i ... utput=html

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 Post subject: Re: How were warships painted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:11 am 
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I forgot to mention that ’‘Shipboard Life and Organisation 1731-1815' also provides some details of painters on board ships in the watch and station bills for Indefatigable and San Domingo in 1812. Indefatigable had one marine idler listed with duty of 'painter', while amongst the working idlers in 'San Domingo', one seaman and two marines were painters. These are listed separate to carpenters.

In the analysis of the 26 gun Dromedary's 120 man crew in 1793, 2 men had previously been painters. Pellew's crew in Caledonia, 1810, included only one previous painter, although there was scarcely a trade unrepresented - everything from hairdressers (5) to button burnishers, miners to soap boilers!

Perhaps we shouldn't underestimate the expertise available on board.

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 Post subject: Re: How were warships painted?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:32 pm 
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Peter Goodwin's article on Victory's paintwork, originally published in the August 2013 Mariners Mirror, is now posted on his website SeaPhoenix:

http://seaphoenix.com/

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 Post subject: Re: How were warships painted?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Oops, I have just found my unopened copy of the August 2013 Mariners Mirror. I must be a bit behind in my reading. Silly me!

Thanks, Kester, it's a most interesting article too.

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Tony


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 Post subject: Re: How were warships painted?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Looking at the secondary sources, I was disappointed to find little documentary evidence to back up the generalisations about how ships were painted, and an irritating habit by authors of referring circuitously to each other, so thought it would be a good idea to do some research myself. I am still mulling over the results, but the following extract from an agreement signed in November 1785 between Plymouth Dockyard and Thomas Winsloe and sons - contracting the firm to do all the yard’s painting work - specifies the make-up/quality of the paint they had to use. As it is of relevance to our last few exchanges, I give that section below.

“Yellow Colour
To be made of the best sort of Spruce Oaker. One hundredweight of it to be mixed with half a hundredweight of the best white lead, exclusive of any Whiting, or any other alloy and the said ingredients to be mixed as to produce the most agreeable Yellow Colour.
Port Red Colour
To be of a mixture of Five pounds weight of the best red lead with half a pound weight of the best Venetian red; the latter to keep the Colour from flying off.
Red Colour
(Usually painted under the Main Decks, Quarter Decks, Fore Castle, Weather Works of the Waste etc) To be of the best Venetian Red, with no other mixture, but that of a little red lead to heighten and dry it
Stone Colour
To be of the best White Lead and Umber
Chocolate Colour.
To be of Lamb black, Venetian red and red only, the latter for drying
Pearl Colour
To be of the best White Lead, and Blue Black only
Black Colour
To be of the best Lamb Black mixed with boiled Linseed Oil
Paint Canvas
No Size to be used thereon, but to be painted with Linseed Oil, and the last time with boiled oil.”

One of the disappointing things about this contract is that it makes little reference as to what is to be painted in these colours. Presumably everyone knew. The exact amount to be paid for doing each part of a ship, including mast and anchors, is given in detail; but the only reference to colour (apart from boats, window frames and side canvases), is that the inside of ships are to be in Red Colour (though the inside of the gunport lids are to be Port Red); and their sides are to be Yellow.
Another thing that is clear is that the black varnish used to ‘pay’ the yards and the main wales near the waterline is not regarded as ‘paint’ and so is not included in contracts with private sector firms who did the painting work in the dockyards.
Brian


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