Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:35 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Salutes
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 151
Hello everyone :)

I've been reading Nelson's letters and came across a letter to Evan Nepean in which he mentions an exchange (or lack thereof) of salutes when Captain Elliot in the Termagant visited the Bay of Rosas. Quote:

Quote:
Captain Elliot was directed not to salute the Fort of his Catholic Majesty but upon a positive assurance of an equal number of guns being returned; finding the Governor would only return the intended salute of a Private Ship, with four guns less, the Termagant did not salute the Fort.


Although he also notes that the Spaniards were civil. Obviously this isn't the only time salutes have been mentioned (and Nelson found it important enough to note in his diary, too), but it got me wondering, how important were salutes in general? Were they just a means of greeting another, or were they an important mark of respect, too? How was it decided how many salutes were appropriate - was there a written 'code' or just one of those unspoken rules? Nelson seemed quite put out by it - was this a quirk of his, or was it common for people to feel insulted if they weren't given the proper number of salutes?

Sorry for the daft questions!

_________________
Vicki


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salutes
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Salutes were very important to the Royal Navy, as their ships were the King's ships. It was much too important to be left to unspoken rules, so the Admiralty issued detailed instructions on when and where salutes should be fired, and how many guns should be used. Of course the British rules differed from other nation's rules, so it was wise to enter into some prior negotiation to avoid allowing your King and country to be insulted.

It was perhaps similar to the question these days of who shakes hands with who, in the case of royalty, leaders, diplomats and politicians.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salutes
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:17 pm
Posts: 217
Not a daft question Vickie.
To prevent accidental disrespect and ruffled feathers, formal relationships between states whether on land or sea have always been subject to a strict code of behaviour and protocol. In the diplomatic sphere the rules are detailed and designed to ensure that correct hierarchies are observed both between nations and between government officials of a particular state. To give one small example, the right hand is the place of honour – thus if one is with one’s own ambassador or a senior foreign dignitary you must walk on his left (and one pace behind), while at dinner parties the senior gentleman must sit on the hostess’s right and the senior lady on the host’s right. Likewise entry into a formal dinner used to be done in hierarchical order. Because in the world of foreign affairs ambassadors in fact represent countries, wars were threatened when (for example) the France of Louis XIV saw itself slighted by being seated in the wrong place or entering the proceeding in the wrong order. Over time, much tension was defused in diplomatic capitals by the device that the seniority of ambassadors should be decided by their longevity in post and not the perceived importance of their country.
Salutes were the maritime equivalent of all this, and were elaborately laid down and internationally uniform. Grave affront would follow if the fort replying to a saluting ship did so with one gun less than expected and – as in the instance you quote – to be on the safe side captains often settled in advance how many guns would be exchanged. The American habit of calling the captains of their big frigates 'commodores' caused a number of problems when foreign governments refused to accept that they were 'real' commodores (ie in charge of small squadrons) and would not give the established salute. On the home front, visiting officials –whether admirals, consuls, consuls-general, ministers, ambassadors were all entitled to a set number of guns and were zealous in ensuring they got them. The amount of saluting, particularly in a foreign port where squadrons of other nations were present was phenomenal - and of course pretty expensive. And it wasn’t all smooth sailing. There is at least one example of protocolary consternation when one of HM ships forgot to take the ball out of the signalling gun.
Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salutes
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 1376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Vicki,

As has been said, salutes were very important and Nelson was certainly something of a 'stickler' for marks of respect and protocol (be it guns or flags), whether it be for a foreign power or within the RN. I don't think he was very different from many other naval officers of the time, but one tends to find a certain 'touchiness' with him on the subject, certainly in his earlier years. Even today salutes are taken seriously as a sign of respect.

Incidentally, the whole idea of gun salutes came about through a requirement that when a ship entered a port, especially a foreign one, she should show that she was not armed – ie, if the guns were loaded they should be safely discharged, and shown to be so. I believe it was originally customary that the ship should also be bow on to the harbour, ie that the guns were not pointed directly at the welcoming committee! In some ports ships had also to unload their powder. It was only later that the whole idea of gun salutes was formalised, a certain number of guns being fired according to the position of the dignatory concerned. I believe these are normally odd numbers.

_________________
Kester.


Last edited by Devenish on Sun May 04, 2014 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salutes
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
brian wrote:
And it wasn’t all smooth sailing. There is at least one example of protocolary consternation when one of HM ships forgot to take the ball out of the signalling gun.
Brian
Saluting could be a very dangerous business. In 1777 Duckworth was court martialled when first lieutenant of the frigate Diamond, after 5 men in a transport ship were killed by a salute:
Quote:
In firing a salute on the Queen's birth-day from the Diamond frigate, five men were unfortunately killed, and two wounded, on board the Grand Duke of Russia transport, lying very near the Diamond. In consequence of this a court-martial was held on the first-lieutenant, J. T. Duckworth, the gunner, gunner's mates, and gunner's crew, for neglect of duty ; but as it appeared on the trial that one shot had been drawn from the guns that were fired, and that none of the party accused knew they had been double-shotted, the court acquitted them of any neglect of duty.
Howe decided the court martial was unsatisfactory as none of the accused had been named, and the captain of the Diamond, Charles Feilding (sic), sat on the panel, and so ordered another court martial. However, this was more to ensure that Duckworth and the others did not fall foul of a civil court, rather than to ensure justice was done.

Feilding seems to have been unlucky with salutes. Earlier, sailing out of Plymouth in the 74-gun Kent in 1774, when saluting the port admiral, wadding from one of the guns caused a powder chest to explode on the poop, killing 10 men, wounding 39, setting fire to the ship and causing much damage. Duckworth was a lieutenant on board on that occasion too, and my ancestor was on board on both occasions.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 104 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group