Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:08 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Shipping losses
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Shipping losses in the 18th century navy ran at 5%, according to Margarette Lincoln in her book Naval Wives and Mistresses.'

What does '5%' mean in absolute terms i.e. how many ships and men were lost in a given year?

Is the attitude of the Admiralty known? Were these losses considered to be unavoidable and acceptable?

What sort of enquiries were held? Captains were court-martialled if they lost a ship to the enemy in an action. But was any attempt made to establish clear-cut causes or to apportion blame in other circumstances (perhaps posthumously, if a captain did not survive)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
Losses to ships in war are inevitable and are to be expected, and in the days of sail, losses were also accepted as unavoidable due to stress of weather.

To give some actual figures for the RN in the 18th century -

In the war of the American Revolution (1775-1783) the RN lost a total of 240 ships, ranging from 1st rates to cuttters and schooners, from all causes, the majority (134 ships and vessels) due to enemy action. That roughly averages 30 a year. The Navy had started the war with 340 ships and ended with 617 ships.

The French Revolutionary War (1793-1801) the RN lost 226 vessels great and small (note - only 62 of these to enemy action, plus 5 to mutiny);an average of about 28 per year; the strength rose from 498 ships to 864.

The Napoleonic War (1802 - 1815) RN lost 409 ships of all sizes (153 to enemy action + 1 to mutiny); average roughly 31 per year; strength from 802 to 819.


It was normal procedure to proceed to Court Martial the senior surviving officer for the loss of the ship; the proceedings effectively acted as a court of inquiry into the circumstances of the loss. Apportioning blame certainly happened. Some examples - the sloop FANTOME was wrecked in 1814, and the subseqent CM reprimanded Commander Thomas Sykes for failing to order constant soundings; the Master was severely reprimanded for failing to ensure soundings were taken and failing to raise any objections to the courses being steered; the pilot was severely reprimanded and lost all pay due to him for steering a dangerous course;

And... the LEOPARD was also wrecked in 1814; again the Captain (Edward Crofton) was reprimanded for failure to order soundings, but the main blame fell on Lieutenant Robert Evans, the officer of the watch. It was found that he had failed to call the Captain after he had run a certain distance,as ordered;had failed to shorten sail and when warnings of shallow water were given he had failed to react. He was dismissed the service.

I cannot immediately think of any CM that posthumously blamed an officer for a loss - probably because he was not able to defend himself


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:47 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Many thanks, PN.

Those 'losses to mutiny' were surprising - an additional cause, apart from 'rock and tempest, fire and foe'.

Is there anything that narrates in greater detail the unfolding of events in these cases?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
the mutinies ...

1793 - 1802:

11 December 1795 SHARK gunvessel; crew rose, imprisoned Lieut. John Watson and took the vessel into St Vaast la Hougue and handed over to the French; no record of participants being caught

7 July 1797 MARIE-ANTOINETTE schooner; portion of the crew rose in the night; loyal members of the crew triced up to the deckhead in their hammocks; Lieutenant John Watson murdered; vessel taken into Gonaives (West Indies) and handed over to the French; some mutineers later caught; one was hanged and gibbeted in 1799

22 September 1797 HERMIONE frigate; large portion of the crew rose up in the night; murdered the officers and warrant officers (with the exception of one young Midshipman, the Master and Carpenter) in horrific circumstances; ship then taken into la Guaira (Venezuela) and handed over to the Spanish. She was retaken by a 'cutting out' expedition in October 1799. The pursuit of the mutineers went on for years; about 24 seem to have been caught and hanged.

14 March 1800 DANAE frigate; about 40 of the crew mutinied late at night; the captain Lord Proby and officers secured and ship taken into Brest and turned over to the French. Again pursuit of the mutineers went on for several years, several being hanged over the next 2-3 years.

23 November 1800 ALBANAISE sloop; portion of the crew rose at night; Lieutenant Newcombe, commanding, had suspected something and was sleeping with loaded pistols - he shot dead one man when they burst into his cabin, and attempted to shoot another before they overpowered him. Something of a struggle ensued between loyal members of the crew and the mutineers - the Gunner was shot and wounded. Mutineers eventually succeeded and took the ship into Malaga and turned it over to the Spanish.
Most of the leading mutineers seem to have been caught; some hanged; other sentences included 100 lashes and 50 lashes.



and the one from 1803-1815:

21 May 1806 DOMINICA schooner; an anchor with Lieutenant Dean (the CO) and others ashore, a portion of the crew took the opportunity to mutiny, wounding the Master as they did. Schooner then sailed to Guadeloupe and given to the French. She was recaptured days later with several of the mutineers still onboard and were hanged. One mutineer who escaped punishment was the ships cook, Naiad Suarie, who was sentenced to death but received a Royal Pardon on hearing evidence that he was a negro from Martinique and had been forced to take part.

........


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:19 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Many thanks again, PN, for that illuminating post. I was aware, of course, of Fleet mutinies like the Nore and Spithead, but was not aware of the mutinies on individual ships that involved the handing over of the ships to foreign powers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
The recapture of the Hermione from the Spanish by Captain Edward Hamilton of the frigate Surprise is celebrated as one of the most daring exploits of its kind, and Hamilton was knighted and received the naval gold medal. Despite losing the element of surprise on being discovered by two Spanish gunboats, Hamilton captured the Hermione with a boarding party of only 50 men, another 50 remaining in the boats to cut the cables and tow the Hermione away from the shore batteries. The Spanish officers and crew, numbering 390 men, put up a desperate resistance, fighting for about an hour. The slaughter was horrific, with the Spanish losing 119 killed and 97 wounded. The British casualties were only 12 men wounded.

The story appears in Edward Giffard’s ‘Deeds of Naval Daring’ as well as the Naval Chronicle, Annual Register, William James, and many other books. Several of the accounts should be found here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?um=1&lr ... arch+Books

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:13 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Jane Austen's niece, Caroline, recalled in her diary the sinking of one of Charles Austen's ships. It throws an interesting light on the contemporary attitude to a captain unlucky enough to lose his ship:

1816, Feb 20: Captain Charles Austen's ship the Phoenix was lost. She went down - all the crew saved. The place is not noted; I do not remember where it was. The pilot was on board. The Phoenix had been a lucky ship, Admiral Halsted having made his fortune in her, but her luck had now run out; perhaps she was not as seaworthy as she had been, tho' I do not recollect that this was ever said. No blame fell on the Captain; yet such a misfortune is always a disparagement; and the war being over, he knew he was likely to wait long for another ship.

from 'Reminiscences of Caroline Austen', pub. Jane Austen Society 1986


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Losses to Piracy
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:16 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
The news at the moment carries alarming reports of increasing piracy in the Gulf of Aden. Piracy was a problem in Nelson's day too. I wonder if losses to piracy were specifically recorded at the time, or whether such losses came under the heading of 'losses to enemy action.'


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 119 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group