Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Access to NMM material
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:27 am 
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Several members who research at the NMM have expressed their concerns privately about the forthcoming closures there and the apparent lack of clarity about access in the future once the changes are completed.

Concern has also been expressed about the impossibility of photcopying or photographing images unless this is done, at great expense, through the NMM.

Whilst recognising their responsibility to guard precious documents and manuscripts and protect them from abuse, and not wishing to appear ungrateful for the services of the staff, we wonder if there is any way in which the NMM can be encouraged to ease the burden on researchers and writers in the way that the National Archives have.

It has been suggested that the website should become a member of Friends of the NMM - if such a body exists - so that we can make our concerns known constructively in a spirit of co-operation.

Does anyone have anything to add?


Last edited by tycho on Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:03 am 
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Tycho,

There is indeed a Friends of the NMM and has been for some time. I myself am a life member having joined in 1989! The Friends are now known as Founder members and have been integrated more closely with the working of the museum. They have been of great help to the Museum over the years, even to purchasing or contributing towards many museum exhibits, get concessionary rates and receive regular information and e-letters.

I am sure WON would be welcomed as members. Will pm you.

Kester


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 Post subject: Re: Acess to NMM material and 'dumbing down'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:16 pm 
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As a naval historian and a resident of Greenwich, I have noted with concern the retreat from naval history which has marked the activities of the NMM in the last 6 years. It now seems now more concerned with multiculturalism and increasing attandance by targetting children. Its latest offering is (for example) a season of - non naval - Indian films and its summer handout was more concerned with actvities to keep children occupoied in the holidays that for the likes of you or me. The naval historians who used to staff the place seem to have been replaced with 'cultural historians' (ie people concerned wwith feminism and race). The withdrawal of lkibrary facilities is par for the course.. I have just cancelled my membershipoof the 'Friends of the NMM' as a kind of mute protest! The current Board - replete with B list Tele-celebrities, doesn't know its business.

Brian


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:39 am 
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Brian,

I tend to agree with you and a visit to the shop shows who they are really catering for, as you say children. There are hardly any good books on naval history in sight or anything else worth buying for the naval enthusiast - I can remember the days when it was a really good place to buy naval books.

Kester


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:51 am 
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There seems to be a huge problem with establishments like the NMM that must serve a dual purpose: to encourage wider access to the general public and also to maintain a serious academic establishment.

I can see the point of encouraging children to visit our museums - that is how lifelong interest is stimulated after all, and some may be the scholars of the future; but it seems that many establishments are under pressure to extend access at the expense of, and to the detriment of, the essential underpinning that serious scholarship provides.

This is a vital issue in our national and cultural life. I hope members will be encouraged to contribute to this debate - and maybe suggest ways in which our concerns may be made known to the Powers That Be.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:48 pm 
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Perhaps the NMM should take a leaf out of this book?
Quote:
On Tuesday 18 November, Natalie Ceeney, Chief Executive of The National Archives, will be holding surgeries in each of the main reading rooms. This is your chance to put your views or questions about the management and future direction of The National Archives directly to her. The surgeries will be held on a first-come, first-served basis - no advance booking needed.

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 Post subject: Caird Library Closure
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:09 pm 
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My last post was a little hasty. I noticed that the one comment that had been left on the NMM Caird Library blog had received a personal reply from Eleanor Gawne, Head of the Archive and Library. I have therefore posted a long list of questions in a comment on the blog, and have been promised a reply. See here: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/library/2008/10/te ... l#comments

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Last edited by Tony on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: NMM REDUCED ACCESS?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:44 am 
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I've clicked through to the NMM blog link, but can't find your comments there Tony. Would it be possible to post them here, as I have a number of questions about this development too?

Here is the current message on the NMM website to explain the transformation taking place at the museum: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.22817

Digesting the practical realities of the change programme announced a couple of weeks ago (and what very short notice it was), the prospect of the world's finest repository of maritime knowledge being off limits for a period of time is a sudden blow. Personally, it coincides with one project just moving into film development, and longer term it would certainly impact on further research. I'm sure many others will be affected by the closure, but the overarching need to improve user facilities and storage of artifacts is understandable and compelling.

A link to view the most recent NMM Annual Report and Accounts is here: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/do ... 3/0633.asp
Items 3.1 (page 4) and SP II (page 19) are particularly relevant, and I wish the NMM Godspeed in getting through this project without a single hitch or delay.

However, the very serious reduction in public access to the Caird Library, when service eventually resumes, is difficult to understand. Why is it, that the (10am - 4:45pm) weekday opening times are to be cut by a significant 40%, with a further 75% reduction on Saturdays, leaving a total of 20 hours access per week? And why is it that this state of affairs seems set to continue for up to four years or more, until the high profile launch of the Cultural Olympiad in 2012?

Incidentally, the original NMM website announcement suggests that this is a permanent change, although by the message of Eleanor Gawne - Head of the Archive and Library - it may mean that reduced access will continue until 2012. I'm not clear on this bit?

At the Caird Library, where all historical paper archives must be laboriously transcribed by hand, if access is restricted to 20 hours each week, the prospect for visitors travelling great distances to Greenwich to undertake blocks of research within a small window of opportunity is not a welcome one. It's difficult enough as it is now.

I'm sorry, but without more clarity, I'm struggling to empathise with this interim action plan, and cannot equate such a significant loss of access, for such a long period of time, with the words used in the Director's personal message: 'highly accessible archives' and 'library will be greatly enhanced.'

Any progress that limits access to our great national libraries and archives - by prior appointment - to visitors in person only - for 20 hours a week - for years or for ever - is progress that I would seriously question.

I would urge the NMM, if at all humanly possible, to reach out and reconsider the planned reduction of open access to the Caird Library's unique archives in this way. And if at all possible to extend, enhance and improve these unique and amazing resources for everyone in the run up to London 2012 - as well as afterwards. Or at the very least be clear to users - at the outset and with plenty of notice - why they cannot.


Last edited by Mira on Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: NMM web blog
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:17 am 
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Tony, your list of questions has appeared on the NMM blog, so please ignore that last request.

May I say what an excellent set of highly relevant questions you pose, very much reflecting the concerns I'm hearing from different quarters. Thanks.

I look forward to reading the NMM's clarification and response.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:32 am 
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Roy and I are very thankful that this NMM library closure didn't come out of the blue in the middle of researching 'Jack Tar'. We used various archives for this book, and the most accessible were those at The National Archives at Kew, because their opening hours are so extensive and because they allow you to take any number of digital photographs of the manuscripts. This is invaluable, because it means that you can do so much more research at Kew, and then decipher the archives and the handwriting when at home, manipulating the digital photographs where the ink is very faint, for example. For those of us who don't live in London, it also means a massive amount of time and money saved. We think that The National Archives is exemplary, and they will also send scans of manuscripts, if you know what you require. Assuming that the rules haven't changed recently, the British Library is excellent because they also have long opening hours, but no digital photography is allowed of manuscripts, which slows the research right down, though scans and photocopies of some books can be paid for. Archives in the Royal Naval Museum at Portsmouth and the Marines Museum at Eastney were also a pleasure to work in, being very welcoming, helpful and very willing for us to make use of their manuscripts in 'Jack Tar'. The most difficult place to do research was the National Maritime Museum, because they currently (even before the closure and re-opening in 2009) have fairly limited opening hours, though everyone is very helpful indeed and we were able to order manuscripts and books in advance. When we were doing research there, personal digital photography was not allowed, and this is very difficult when dealing with handwriting, as you can spend ages deciphering it, and then it all has to be typed on a laptop or written out on a pad of paper. They and some other archives are trying to protect their manuscripts as accessioned museum objects and do not want photographs of them to be in circulation, presumably in case somebody makes a profit from them - museums are afraid that researchers will make and sell postcards or sell the images to advertising agencies or whatever! At the same time they are trying to make the manuscripts accessible to researchers. As Tony says, digitising manuscripts is the only way forward, and this applies to all archives. If Google can do it so rapidly for books, then think what could be done for manuscripts! We also encountered problems with NMM over obtaining permission for quoting passages from manuscripts, since we were told that we could not use a 'significant' portion of any one manuscript. Considering that some manuscripts comprise a single letter, then this was hugely restrictive and something we hope will be changed in the future. We have never encountered this anywhere else. As for the closure of the NMM's library and archives and the very restricted opening hours that will follow, we just hope that they will allow personal digital photography to compensate for the inconvenience. We also hope that the website is badly worded and that ultimately the opening hours will be vastly increased, once all the building work is finished. In terms of digital photography, none of us will surely mind signing a form to say that the digitals will not be reproduced without prior permission. We now await with interest the reply to Tony's questions that he posted on the NMM blog.

Lesley


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:47 am 
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I am baffled by the Caird Library's policy on photography. For some time their published policy on copying from the Archive and Library collections has included the following:
Quote:
Photography by the Reader
Readers may also use their own non-flash cameras to photograph items. There are restrictions on photographing some items:

Items that can be photographed only with an ‘acetate’ overlay sheet:
    Single sheet crown copyright maps and charts that are more than 50 years old (see www.ukho.gov.uk for further information on copyright)
    Original works of art (e.g. charts and maps, designs, drawings and hand-coloured prints)
Items that cannot be photographed:
    Ship plans
All photography is under staff supervision in a designated area, using document support aids where appropriate. We regret that the use of camera tripods is not permitted, but we provide a camera stand for users, available on a first come, first served basis. Cameras must be set to ‘silent’ and digital cameras should be set to ‘still photography’ mode. Flash photography is not permitted.

(see http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/librar ... ollections )

And yet everybody who visits says they are told photography is not allowed. Does anybody understand what is going on?

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 Post subject: The right place?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Should the archives held at the National Maritime Museum be at Kew?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:32 pm 
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Fenshu:

welcome to the forum!

Since the National Archives is the official repository for the documents of all government departments, one might well argue that documents generated by the Admiralty that are held by the NMM should be in the care of the NA. Most Admiralty records are, at fact, at Kew. I don't know what the criteria are for retaining Admiralty documents at the NMM.

Of course, much NMM maritime material is non-governmental in origin and therefore was not generated by a government department; though, oddly, there is a lot of material on merchant shipping in the NA, since the Board of Trade had much to do with the merchant marine. For example, seamen's Certificates of Competency or 'tickets' were issued by the Board of Trade, and therefore these records are at Kew, having been generated by a government department.

The Historical Manuscripts Commission is a useful source of information about the location of records in the UK, and their value in historical research.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:38 am 
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Re photography of documents &c. at the NMM

I was recently at the Caird and was faced with a bit of a conundrum.

I had ordered two letters which were supposedly from two different authors but which I thought may have been penned by the same person.
The letters were only available to me on a one at a time basis and so I enquired if it was possible for me to either
1. Have both documents at once
2. Take a photograph of one so that I could compare the image on my laptop with the other original letter
3. Take a photograph of both so that I could compare both digitally
4. Have Copies provided by the NMM

The response:

1. No - The letters were of National Importance and no facility could be provided to have more than one available.
2. No - The letters were of National Importance and it was not permissible to take any form of digital image
3. No - see point 2
4. Yes - but at a standard cost of £50 per item (the person I spoke to was unsure whether this was per letter or per side (each letter was 2 sides - a possible £200 gamble on a hunch) They could be ordered and forwarded to me at a later date. - Of course I could order one and then return, however living hundreds of miles away and not being the wealthiest of citizens, I decided to forgo this option.

I enquired further as to the Photographic policy and in simple terms - if it's printed and not of any National historic significance you can snap away. However if it's a document of any historical importance you must pay £50 per item (or side !)
To add a little spice I asked if I could photograph the Matcham collection - not an original in sight, the whole lot being facsimilies (created in the 1970's I think) - the response - They are of National Importance and couldn't be copied - so - no copies of the copies either. Of course I could pay £50 for a photograph of a photocopy!

The £50 is a set rate - for professional or personal use.

I was delighted to find out that when the NMM structural changes are complete there will be new digital scanners in the Library - of course if you need a copy of anything 'important' then you can't use them.

One side note - who determines which documents are of National importance and if a document is determined to be of National importance - surely it should actually be available to the Nation.

I wish I could understand the logic - If anyone else does please explain.

On a wider note.

I feel that the NMM are missing a fantastic opportunity.

I personally work for a large media organisation and one of the projects I have been tasked with is how to get our newspaper archive online and readily accessible to the general public - at a small cost to the end user of course - after all we are in this to make money from the services we provide. One of the titles I have been looking at has a start date of 1837 but because of mergers (they happened then) there is an archive going back to the 1790's so the task is initially quite daunting - but break it down into its parts and it is easy (I have to keep telling myself this!)

I happily and regularly pay £3.50 to the NA's and would eagerly pay a similar amount to the NMM for digitised copies of letters documents and the like.

It's not rocket science - simple, methodical, repetitive, systematic work - and it would take quite a while but if manage properly would make money from the outset.

The benefits
1. International access to the superb archive.
2. Make the Caird totally self funded.
3. Retain the jobs of many excellent people who work there

If they are struggling for ideas - they could always give the NA a call, after all they seem to do this sort of thing quite well.

The NMM are great custodians of the most valuable naval archive in the world, but seem happy to be that - custodians - leaving the archive to gather dust - accessible to the fortunate few and soon to be fewer. I, like some other posters can only get to the Caird for a few precious days a year, and with the proposed changes the visits would be almost pointless - 20 hours a week! -

It would appear that the NMM really have little conception of who their users are or what are their requirements and needs - they understand the archives value in terms of rarity and importance but not it's value to the world at large, to historians, to researchers, to simple interested people like myself.

It is quite honestly time for a great wakeup call, action must be taken to make this fantastic resource available to the widest possible audience otherwise the funding will undoubtedly be cut and the archive lost to another site (My favourite would be Portsmouth along side The Victory - under charitable status and run by forward thinking people)

Sorry for the ramble but I'm feeling very frustrated that the NMM have taken this line and are continuing to travel the road of the 'Gabinetto Segreto'

Also one small point. The Chap with a beard in the library - one of the most friendly and helpful people I have met - can we all chip in together to send him on a touch typing course - he is a little heavy handed on the keyboard ! !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:38 am 
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If any of the manuscripts at the National Maritime Museum are not of National Importance, then what the heck are they doing there in the first place?

Swiftsure, The practice that you describe seems to be completely contrary to their published policy. The only items for which Professional digital imaging by Archive and Library staff is allowed, but photography by the reader is not, are ship plans. Apart from that, the restrictions are supposed to be the same.

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