Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:03 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:17 pm
Posts: 217
Fenshu and Tony!

The problem of where documents should be held is complicated by the British practice of having (at least) two types of public sector 'government department' - 1) political departments of the crown run by ministers and 2) what these days are called 'quangos', that is administreative departments run by appointed officials of one kind or another.

The Navy before 1832 was a perfect example of this. Of the one hand was the 'crown' department - the Admiralty - responsible for strategy, ships deployments and commissioned sea officers; on the other, the 'quangos - the Navy Board, the Victualling Board and Sick and Hurt Board - which were responsible for the navy's enormous support apparatus ie dockyards, shipbuilding and repair, supplies, food, and warrant officers - boatswains, carpenters, masters, surgeons etc

In the division of archival labour, documents originating in 'crown' departments are generally held at Kew, those from 'quangos' at Greenwich. Thus Admiralty letters to the Navy Board are in Kew; the repiles - Navy Boards letters to the Admiralty - at Greenwich! The situation is further complicated by the fact that 'crown' documents are all neatly archived and catalogued, whereas 'quango' documents are not. Many indeed - like surgeon's logs for example, were not kept but cavalierly throw away. It is only in the last ten years that a project run by the Naval Dockyards Society has started to catalogue the vast treasure house of administrative documents that lie in the Navy Board papers in Greenwich.

Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:29 pm
Posts: 8
Thank you. Your comments are appreciated.

As far as I can see (I am happy to be corrected), the splitting up of government and non-government documents is a big issue that needs a big solution. From what I've understood, it will be even more essential that the management at the National Maritime Museum have the ability to take care of all books and documents, as well as ensuring that investment is made to keep them available to the people who have an interest and wish to see them.

There is now a wide gulf between the quality of the service at the National Archives and other centres I have used, and the very user un-friendly and confusing regulations of the National Maritime Museum. That gap is widening, the business about the coming closure and shrinking opening times puts the cap on it.

The National Maritime Museum is in danger of becoming no more than a combination of coffee shop and toy shop with pretty gardens (do we have Alan Titchmarch on the board of directors to thank for that one?) That may be a bit of a black and white judgement, but in spite of the swish interior and plans for elegant landscaping around the grounds, in my very humble opinion, the National Maritime Museum is in danger of losing sight of it's real reason for being. The library is at risk of sliding into extinction by neglect, putting the collection beyond the reach of the most loyal customers, while spending money promoting trivia and fripperies to appeal to a very young age group. It seems to be a question of balancing the needs of everyone - adults and children, casual visitors and more serious enthusiasts alike. At the moment it looks like a policy of quantity over quality, and style over substance is in place. A dinosaur dressed up in trendy clothing without even a hint of a decent digital archive. And now it's closing, cutting off the lifeblood before limiting opening hours for years to come.

Everything seems to be back to front. What is the use of trumpeting a website catalogue, when customers cannot access the items advertised? It's a bit like going through a store catalogue such as Argos, to be told that everything is unavailable. I'm sure library users won't want to visit the Museum to browse an online catalogue and dream of what they would like to see.

I know where I can buy a set of maritime mugs for the kitchen, or a pair of nautical socks for grandad this Christmas. But I don't know when I can visit the library or website to see the real thing. Do the staff who work at these places and publish books and research papers suffer from the same regulations and limited access that the rest of us are forced to endure? For I'm sure this situation wouldn't have arisen if that were the case.

Is the real thing being replaced with plastic and polystyrene souvenirs at pocket money prices, whilst taking books and manuscripts out of bounds, and charging an arm and a leg to order a copy of a page?

A final thought. Brian - do you know if the cataloguing project by the Naval Dockyards Society you refer to includes digitising the records at the same time as cataloguing them? This could be an opportunity to make progress towards getting the records online and secured should anything happen to the originals.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
This is not a wind up - I promise.
Quote:
There is a demanding period ahead as we work to implement the Sammy Ofer Wing project whilst maintaining our high standards of public offer and core responsibilities as well as planning for hosting the Equestrian Events of the 2012 Olympics.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Answers to my questions have now appeared on the NMM website: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/library/ Note that the questions have been completely rephrased on the new post, and that in at least one case a different question has been answered.

The answers speak for themselves.

Amongst evrything else, I am particularly interested in other users' opinions of the adequacy of the advance warning and any consultation process.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 1376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Tony,

In answer to your previous post, you're right, it's not a windup.

In issue 1 of the NMM Magazine there was an article, 'Horses for Courses', by one of the Museum staff about just that - or rather it's about the jousting tournaments that Henry the Eighth held in the grounds of the old Greenwich Palace. Linking it to the 2012 Olympics, he says that the NMM grounds and Greenwich park will become the horse circus for the London Olympics.

So there you have it - straight from the, er, horses mouth, so to speak.

Kester


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:29 pm
Posts: 8
Journalist of the Year, Andrew Gilligan's column is covering the run-up to the Olympic events at Greenwich. He also writes for the Evening Standard:

http://www.greenwich.co.uk/andrew-gilligan/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
I have posted some further comments on the NMM Caird Library blog, addressed to Eleanor Gawne (Head of Archive & Library), but as yet they are "pending approval", so I will post them here too:
Quote:
Eleanor, thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my most of my questions, although I must admit that I was hoping for a little more clarity in some areas. With the closure imminent, I find it very disturbing that there is no firm date for re-opening, and no clarity over long term service provision. Overall, I have to say that I find the replies desperately disappointing, as I am sure you will have anticipated, but I will try not to let too much emotion creep into my further comments, which in any case may not be very welcome.

I think it is fair to summarise the answers to my first five questions as follows. Prior to October, one announcement of the planned closure during 2009 was made on the Caird Library Blog in August, while other announcements referred only to the short one or two week closures in 2008 and to disruption in 2009. No consultation took place about the closure, but some consultation took place about users’ preferred days of opening. None of the project’s budget has been allocated to maintaining the library services during the development, there is no guaranteed latest date for the reopening, and as yet there is no commitment to returning to the either the current opening hours or increased opening hours when the work is completed in 2012.

I think the above speaks for itself. I don’t see how any of it could be considered acceptable.

I do realise that maintaining service provision during a major development presents a huge planning challenge, and also raises a debate about splitting the budget between long term investment and maintaining short term service provision. The NMM has not risen to the challenge, and just quoting other organisations that may also have failed to meet the challenge does little to suggest there was much serious consideration given to the issue. The failure to engage with stakeholders and the lack of any adequate consultation seems a very risky strategy for a publicly funded organisation.

To be blunt, I think that in answer no. 9 it is misleading to claim that you “are keeping the archive and library collections accessible during the next three years” when there will be a closure for a period of the order of six months with no access whatsoever. I simply cannot accept that this is in keeping with a strategic priority 'to maintain… a core public offer to the on-site and online visitor that ... offers opportunity for research’, especially as none of the project’s budget is allocated to meeting that strategic priority.

I am also very disappointed by what seems a rather defeatist attitude towards digitisation, and a very London-centric outlook. I think the Museum’s attitude might change if you were able to successfully canvass the many potential users not within commuting distance, who are able to visit the library only occasionally, if at all. It is clear that this blog has not been an effective means of obtaining feedback, and that canvassing regular users obtains input from only a tiny unrepresentative minority. With tens of millions being spent on physical access, the statement that you “do not have the resources available currently to digitise even the most frequently accessed material” comes across as quite extraordinary to many of us.

I am not quite clear, but presumably the statement that “the South West Wing Project does have a strong digital component, which will improve global access to documents”, means that onsite visitors will be able to access documents from elsewhere, and has no relevance to the question of digital access to the museum’s own manuscript collection?

Without there yet being a commitment to extending opening hours, the improvements in 2012 for academic researchers seem a little marginal - mainly the increased number of retrievals and the quiet study area. Presumably the enhanced online catalogue and electronic resources could be delivered independently of the building programme. This seems somewhat at odds with the earlier statement that “the long-term gains will be immeasurable”.

One thing I simply don’t understand is why bringing forward the start date increases the length of time the library will be closed? Why cannot the re-opening date also be brought forward?

Is naval history research being sacrificed to the Olympic Games?

I think my views are fairly mild compared to some I have heard from others. I think you might find it useful to take a look at the views being expressed in the ‘Nelson and His World’ forum at http://www.nelsonandhisworld.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=1 and particularly this thread: http://www.nelsonandhisworld.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=258


I hope others will make their views known direct to the NMM.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:17 pm
Posts: 217
Good stuff Tony!

I understand that the Navy Records Society, the Society of Nautical Research and the Naval Dockyards Society have all written (or are about to write) letters of protest the the Director and the Chairman of the NMM Trustees who have, of course, a legal obligation to make public records in their charge freely available. A number of leading academics have also written on behalf of their students, including those from overseas whose time is particularly valuable.

Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:30 pm
Posts: 284
Location: England
Thank you Tony for your excellent, measured and thoroughly illuminating response to Eleanor Gawn and the NMM.

Amongst other things, I too am concerned about the 'consultation' that wasn't.

Also in the decision-making and planning processes that will lead to the closure of the Caird Library months earlier than advertised and for longer than was anticipated.

Together with the subequent reduction in access, I find it difficult to understand or credit how all this could have gone forward without first ensuring and investing in a continued and acceptable 'core' service for users.

I have added a few questions to the NMM blog this morning. Although I don't think my post could add more to what Tony has already covered, here they are:

Quote:
Thank you for your clarification of the queries posted above.

I have a few follow up questions which I hope you will be able to clarify further:

1. When, why and by what process was the decision to bring forward the Library closure from spring/summer 2009, to December 2008 through to late spring/early summer 2009 made?

2. I would be interested to understand your public consultation process in more detail. The information you provide, on the online consultation via your link, refers to one method and illustrates one response.

Please could you publish, as far as you are able within the terms of the Freedom of Information Act as it relates to your organisation, any further information on the process followed: through planning, implementation and evaluation, and including without compromising respondents privacy, quantitative and qualitative data on the public response?

3. In addition to the public consultation referred to, have you received any communication from the general public: individuals, groups or organisations, offering their feedback/comments for consideration on the proposed development of the Sammy Ofer wing? (In particular, in this instance, the closure and subsequent changes to public access at the Caird Library). Are you able to publish entire or summarise this information?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Guidelines on Consultation for Public Sector Bodies
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:30 pm
Posts: 284
Location: England
Heavy going for general readers, but an essential example for a public body undertaking a £35M development project.

GUIDELINES ON CONSULTATION FOR PUBLIC SECTOR BODIES:

http://www.betterregulation.ie/attached ... nglish.pdf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:15 am
Posts: 14
Tony,

I couldn't agree more. After speaking to some of the library staff, it is quite apparent that the definitions of what can or cannot be copied are very blurred.

I don't blame the staff at all, they are some of the most genuine and helpful folk imaginable. They are however the frontline 'police' of what I would consider an ill thought out and ultimately costly policy imposed by powers that have no conception of what their end users need.

The real answer to the conundrum, as far as I see it, is to get the archive digitised and available online. (I have no problem with paying a modest fee) - The library visits can then be used for those who need to view the original source material first hand.

I appreciate that the task is not for the feint hearted, and there are cost implications to be factored. But given the nature and international interest in the archive, a well implemented strategy should cover the outlay and might even turn a profit.

It's a matter of melding the goals and ideals of a repository of historic knowledge with the needs of modern day researchers using sensible business methods.

Swiftsure


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
There is one extremely easy method by which the most frequently accessed manuscripts could be digitised. It would take less than a year, and would need a budget of only a few tens of thousands - maybe very few!

This would be to allow users to take digital photographs, but ask them to provide the NMM with copies. There would be a few issues with standardisation of images, file types and quality, but most users would regard these as minor inconveniences. If this was made a truly collaborative project, the budget could be kept to an absolute minimum by users uploading and cataloguing the images themselves using Wiki style software or similar. If users were provided with a printed slip of the catalogue reference to include in each shot, then mis-categorisation would be kept to a minimum, and QA could be a part time role for one member of staff. Ideally, computers and card readers would be provided on-site and users encouraged to upload images before leaving, but an Internet upload and editing facility should be provided to allow it to be done after the event.

I’m sure most users would be happy to assist with the project.

How about it, NMM?

One vital (and serious) point – forget the feasibility study – it will cost more than the project itself.

_________________
Tony


Last edited by Tony on Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:42 am
Posts: 33
Location: Oxford
I've held back from this fascinating discussion as I know it can raise blood pressure and who needs that in the current economic climate. Also, I am a senior manager at the Bodleian Library at Oxford where we have a similar issue about to explode, and I am currently awaiting selection for a research Fellowship at the NMM next year, so do forgive my unusually mealy-mouthed approach here.

HOWEVER... the situation at Greenwhich will rapidly become intolerable and unworkable for serious researchers, and the lack of a sensible, coherent and customer-friendly policy on digital photography is unlikely to be rectified until after the new Caird Library opens. Which will of course be at least a year longer than anticipated - but at least it will look nice for the b****y Olympics. Of course, we won't be able to see the inside of it for many weeks that summer either.

As I understand it, the NMM works under similar rules in respect of archives of national importance to the NA at Kew. In that case it cannot be beyond the wit of politicians and civil servants to devise a policy based on Kew's, which is a model of sensible, research-friendly management. They don't seem to miss many commercial tricks at Kew, whereas Greenwich seems intent on ONLY being a commercial entity, to the detriment of serious naval history research and teaching in this country.

At the Bodleian our "policy" on digital photography seems to share some of NMM's, with no self-service available (or photocopying either) for manuscripts, rare books and volumes published before 1910. Although I am a member of staff and currently researching our collection of Samuel Pepys' naval papers, I also have to go through our mediated service, at commercial rates, if I want digital or photo-copies for further study.

Although I would prefer a wider use of digital imaging by Readers, even of manuscripts, I have sympathy with that rule, having seen what some Readers can do to a book even when they are being careful. However, I feel that the NMM is not in the same position as the Bodleian (which essentially is a private institution), and its collections are not of the same generally fragile and highly valuable type. The NMM has a duty to the public who pays their wages to offer a half-decent service.

The idea of a digital collection formed by researchers by handing over a disc with copies of the material they have photographed has merit, although the indexing would need to be very tightly managed to avoid mis-matching. At the least, allowing digital imaging would cut down on the need for individual researchers to visit and call up fragile documents, as once we have seen the original a clear digital image is usually all we need for further study.

BTW, the Bodleian has a growing digital collection of our newspaper holdings, and the commercial online collections of 18th and 19th century periodicals are very well-used resources.

Hoping for the best,
Justin

_________________
[color=#0000FF][b]Justin Reay FSA FRHistS
Naval and Maritime Art Historian[/b][/color]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Good luck with selection for the research fellowship, Justin.

The NMM receives Arts and Humanities Research Council funding for research, which is dependant on their staff publishing research. During the next three years I wonder whether staff will have access to the Archives over and above the limited access provided to the public, or whether this funding will be at risk?

Am I right in thinking that the Bodleian has also partnered with Google in the digitisation of published books held by the library? (Although books of course are a very different matter, and no so relevant to the NMM discussion.)

There is a further response from the NMM at the end of the comments section at http://www.nmm.ac.uk/library/2008/11/up ... l#comments

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
I have posted some more comments on the Caird Library blog, which are currently held for approval, so I wil again post them here too:
Quote:
Eleanor, thank you very much for your long and detailed responses to my comments, which at least give me considerably more understanding of what is going on. I really do believe that you should be commended for the noble efforts you are making in defending decisions that clearly originated other than in the Archive and Library section, and indeed must have been very unwelcome to your department. It is a shame that those responsible for the decisions do not stand up and defend them for themselves.

I must say that I am appalled by the reasons behind the decision to bring forward the closure of the Caird Library. Bringing forward the start date creates a double whammy for researchers, resulting firstly in extending the period of closure and secondly removing almost all the time available for researchers to make any plans to mitigate its impact. The decision is clearly detrimental to the Museum’s achievement of its strategic priority to maintain services to researchers during the development.

The reasons quoted are:

1. “to make the overall building works period shorter” – This might seem desirable, but researchers may not benefit, as at present it seems that the reduced opening hours of the Caird Library might remain a permanent feature after the opening of the new Research centre in the Sammy Ofer wing in 2012.

2. “to achieve more with the funds in this period of global financial downturn” – this may seem commendable to some, particularly politicians, but the Museum’s priority is its duty to maintain its core offering to researchers and the wider public, not to kick-start the British economy.

3. “the Olympics” – This is simply outrageous – that the Olympics should take precedence over Maritime and Naval History. What is the NMM thinking of?

4. “the wishes of the major donor to the project” – During this project, the Museum will receive considerably more in public funding than the amount of the donation for this project, and while this is obviously a delicate area, it is not right that the wishes of a major donor are allowed to have a detrimental effect on the Museum’s offering to the British public. This represents a fundamental failure in the Museum’s public accountability.

I am sorry that you did not respond to the other comments that were left about public consultation, as I would have been most interested to have known the answers, and I do hope you will extend the same courtesy there that you have to me. Forgive me for expressing some scepticism here, but the reference to consultation does seem little more than a smokescreen. What you refer to as a consultation in June 2008 “with our stakeholders about Library service provision from 2009-2012” was in fact no more than a single question posted on a little read blog, and with a two day period allowed for responses! The question itself (which three days would you prefer us to open?) did not invite any in depth feedback about users’ needs. Again, there are major issues around public accountability here.

Your responses so far have, perhaps understandably, concentrated on the difficulties faced by the Archive and Library section, rather than on the needs of users. I would like to appeal to the Museum to reconsider some of its plans (and lack of plans) for service provision over the next three years and beyond, in the light of the needs of researchers. It seems that delaying the start date of the project to allow for the proper planning of service provision, although highly desirable, would probably be a bridge too far. Instead, I would like to appeal to the Museum to mitigate the impact on researchers as follows:

1. To reconsider the length of the temporary closure. For example, why not phase the removal of the archives to the off-site location and keep access open to the remainder of the archives while the first parts are removed?

2. To reconsider the service provision from 2009 to 2012 to allow researchers to work more effectively. On re-opening in 2009, the number of document retrievals per day will be reduced because documents have to be retrieved from off site. To mitigate the impact of this, the number of days or hours of opening could be increased, rather than reduced. Arrangements for the method and number of documents that can be ordered could be finalised now and be such that researchers can work effectively. I also think it absolutely essential to improve the ease of copying from the Archive and Library collections. From others’ comments it would appear this could be transformed by relaxing the restrictions on digital photography. It seems to me that this does not even involve a change of policy – merely implementing the policy already published.

3. To commit now to providing greater access to the archives after the opening of the new Research centre in 2012, and in particular to commit to extending opening hours.

4. To engage now in a meaningful public consultation with users and potential users about service provision for researchers for the next three years and beyond. The above are just my own personal views, although I think there will be others that agree with them. To proceed further without proper consultation must surely damage the Museum’s reputation.

Clearly some of the above will require some of the project’s budget to be allocated, and it seems extraordinary that this has not been considered. Now is surely the time to allocate some of the contingency in the budget to maintaining the Museum's core offering to researchers.

I am glad you found my suggestion interesting on the digitisation of the most frequently accessed manuscripts. I would just comment further that it would not be necessary to reassign copyright from the photographer to the Museum. All that is necessary is for the photographer to grant permission for the Museum to reproduce the images for the purpose of personal non-commercial research by users, and to allow users to make copies for that purpose. Demanding a reassignment of copyright would kill the project stone dead as it would raise suspicion and antagonism in users. Reassigning copyright would remove the individuals own rights to their own work and would allow the Museum to exploit the images commercially, which would run totally counter to the ethos of a collaborative project.

I am sure others will disagree with the emphasis I have placed on the different issues, and in particular I am sure others would push for a greater emphasis on digitisation plans. I feel that the digitisation of the manuscripts collection is absolutely vital for the future, but I have no confidence in the museum's ability to make any plans in that direction in the next few months. It is obvious that the plans for moving the collection into the off-site location have been thrown into total chaos by the change in the building schedule. I think the priority has to be some proper planning of the service provision over the next few months. Just maybe they can come up with something to allow us to proceed with our researches. But I hope others will put forward their own opinions to the Museum.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 100 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group