Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: The Nile v Trafalgar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:59 am 
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Some historians claim that it was the Nile , rather than Trafalgar which was Nelson's greater achievement, and it was only with the death of Nelson that Trafalgar assumed its greater significance. Certainly, it seems that Nelson's tactics, (ie breaking the line) had been used before ( was it Rodney at the Saintes?). What do the others think? Which was Nelson's greatest achievement ? Again, the batttle of St Vincent was remarkable - but if Nelson had not disobeyed... if Collingwood had not realised what HN intended... and if a less visionary commander than Jervis had been in command..(?Hyde Parker perhaps?).....what then? Over to you!-t

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Hello all - to old friends, and I hope, many new iones!! Great to be on board, and congratulations to all involved with what will be , I know, a great, lively new site, and as they say, " God bless all who sail in her! - tay


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:49 pm 
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Tay,

It is debatable as to whether the Nile or Trafalgar was the 'greatest'.

It is probably true that the Nile had the more actual real impact on future events. For example all, except four of the thirteen ships - although these were later caught up with - were either destroyed or captured. At Trafalgar only fifteen out of the thirty three combined fleet were similarly dealt with, even though Nelson at the outset had desired the combined fleet's destruction. It is easy to call for these things at the outset, however, quite another to carry it out! There again, The Nile was probably the principal cause of Napolean's abandoning his dream to capturing British India, and which was followed up by the actions of Abercrombie and the army in Egypt and those of Sir Sydney Smith at Acre.

Trafalgar, much lauded as it is, did not remove the French threat to invade the British Isles, something which was often said in the past I believe by the Victorians (again!), but which for some time now has been denied by historians. Napolean broke up his camp at Boulogne before Trafalgar and marched his troops to face the Austrians threat at Austerlitz, which of course he won.

I also agree with modern day historians that much of what has earlier been said of Trafalgar, does not bear close scrutiny and many things which were claimed to have been a 'first' are laid at Nelson's door. This, as has been implied, was largely because this was the battle in which he died and so of course everything was accorded to him. However, Nelson was rather more of an implementer of other's tactics, which he had studied. You mention the Battle of the Saintes which was where Rodney did indeed break the line, perhaps the first Admiral to do so. Nelson, having of course studied this tactic, was only copying it where he though the situation warranted it.

St. Vincent, of course, was where Nelson shone and where he first came to public attention, although of course his abilities were well known within within the navy long before that. However, wearing your ship out of the line and then initially taking on five 80 gun Spanish ships single-handedly, before support arrived takes some guts! I'm not sure these days that it is thought Nelson actually disobeyed Jervis, but rather that he had a tacit agreement with him. He was after all a commodore. However it was a gamble, and if it had not payed off Nelson might well have been on the receiving end of Jervis' not inconsiderable wrath!

I think, perhaps, on balance that the Nile was the greater of the two engagements.

Kester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:10 pm 
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I'm not qualified to compare the two battles, but I hope it won't be thought too much of a digression if I broaden out Tay's question: 'What was Nelson's greatest achievement?' to ask 'What was it about him that made him capable of these great achievements?'

The three great battles occupied only three days of his life, but they were the culmination of years of experience in which he had developed all the attributes, skills and personal qualities without which he could not have achieved these great victories. Though other officers might outshine him in one or other specific quality - Troubridge, we are told by St Vincent, was the better seaman - it was the cumulative effect of his many gifts that made him pre-eminent. I leave the argument about whether or not he was a innovative tactician to others who know more, but the ability to formulate, and carry out a battle plan to fulfilment was dependant also on other great gifts. Some of these, in no particular order of merit, were:

Seamanship;

administrative and organisational ability - your fleet must be properly equipped, well-fed and in good health. Nelson's letters are full of his battles with contractors and the Admiralty to ensure this;

man management: Nelson was a stickler for discipline but he was consistent and fair; he was an astute judge of character and knew how to resolve conflict and defuse tension; he encouraged his officers to act on their own initiative while assuring them of his support if things went wrong;

personal courage: he always led from the front;

'positive charisma' - this is my personal term for those who inspire in such a way that those under you seek to emulate you through admiration rather than fear.

Can anyone add more - once the Nile/Trafalgar discussion is over? Sorry for the digression.


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