Nelson & His World

We all admire Nelson's many virtues, but he had his flaws and failings like the rest of us. I think the interesting thing is that his flaws make his seem more human, not monstrous, as is often the case when great men behave badly. As Acton said, 'Power tends to corrupt.' One of the things I admire most about Nelson is that he never abused his authority or gloried in the exercise of power for its own sake. He was always willing to use his status to help others, whether it was getting the best deal for his sailors, helping his family or, indeed, any lame duck who tottered across his path.

What were his failings, then? Some of them he admitted himself. When he was giving a character reference for one of his seamen accused of murder, he said that, unlike the accused, 'he was 'warm' - that is, quick-tempered.

He could be stubborn in argument: he comments in a letter to his brother, 'You know I am not famous for giving up a point'. And he was absolutely relentless if he felt criticism was unfair. He engaged in furious correspondence with a Danish general after the Battle of Copenhagen when it was suggested that his flag of truce was a 'ruse de guerre' rather than a humanitarian act.

He admitted that he had not the gift of patience: 'I never learned it; though I can admire it in others.'

He admitted he was vain - in his letter to Fanny after the Vanguard storm he says that it was God's way of punishing his pride.

Vanity is the fault he is accused of most frequently but to me it seems quite harmless - his vanity was not the kind that makes a man overbearing or arrogant. His courtesy and consideration for people at every level of society was legendary. He just took a rather child-like delight in his medals and honours and the recognition he received for his achievements.

Well, that's a start.

You're a brave man Tycho. Attempting to point out the weaknesses of a hero on a board populated with rabid fans could land you in serious hot water!

However, I'll stick my neck in the noose too!

Nelson's triumphs most certainly overshadowed his flaws, but let us not forget that he was human.

Roger Knight, in his most excellent biography of Nelson, "The Pursuit of Victory" Cites a few examples of Nelson flying into a jealous rage upon receiving letters from Emma; of tactical blunders made by Nelson; and of course, references to his vanity on several occasions.

I do believe that it was his vanity that drew him towards Emma. I don't think there is any doubt at all that he loved her deeply, but I've always had the feeling that he had to have her not only for her beauty, but because she was known to be one of the most beautiful women in society. As we all know, his affair got him into trouble in several ways.

I've always felt that the ferocious tenacity that he was capable of in battle sometimes backfired on him in life. In other words, he was a severely driven individual -sometimes to his own detriment!

Tycho,

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

Billy,

I somehow doubt that 'rabid fans' would be seriously put out by pointing out Nelson's weaknesses - we know and accept them. For the student, that makes him all the more human and the more acceptable. I think it would really take a person of 'Victorian tastes' (are there any these days?) to be seriously put out!

So, I am sure that Tycho will be spared the hot water and you the noose!

A belated welcome to the site by the way, from me. You've the name of a good ship there!

Devenish and Billy,

It is really interesting to see how a bit of distance allows us to see Nelson as a human being rather than a pasteboard hero. The biographies written in the aftermath of his death and throughout the Victorian era all extol the blameless hero, annexed by state and Empire as a model of virtue. Emma was the difficulty, of course. In an age of repression and hypocrisy, an excuse had to be found for the hero's dalliance and it can be very amusing to see how biographers deal with it. Frederick Lloyd (1806) sidesteps the problem neatly by mentioning as an aside, that Nelson 'had dinner' with Lady Hamilton. Others paint him as an innocent, inveigled by a scheming woman; still others, like Hilda Gamlin, insist that theirs was a pure friendship.

It is only in more recent years that the relationship can be looked at more honestly and more fairly. I won't argue the merits of the various critical viewpoints, merely note that they exist.

His professional life, too, is now looked at more critically: his recklessness and occasional foolhardy risk-taking are now addressed in biographies, as are his sometimes fractious relationships with his superiors and his prickliness when he felt himself professionally slighted.

I think this is all to the good. Recognising his human failings only serves to emphasise his virtues. For every flaw, there are so many counterbalancing virtues that it is clear why 'Nelson was the man to love'.

Phew! Thanks Billy Ruff'n for replying to this topic - I was determined not to be first to reply, having too often been drawn before to comment on Nelson's faults. Had nobody else responded, I would merely have observed that the illustrious nature of the character of Nelson knows no bounds - This is a fact that is beyond dispute, and the name of Nelson soars above all others. To speak of flaws is a futile exercise in self-delusion.

However - he was a bit obsessed with the Royals of the time, and this was a flaw that led to errors of judgement. Perhaps he was a little over-eager to please Prince William Henry and the Queen of Naples and Sicily?

His other flaws are easy to forgive - they parallel his merits so closely. His vanity was the other side of the self confidence that he needed to deliver victory.

In Nelsons favor, I'm of the mind that we (the public) are just as culpable -if not more- for trying to paint him as a saint, and sweeping his less than virtuous traits under the rug.

We see what we want to see.....

When I was at St. Pauls Cathedral last fall to visit his tomb, I found it extremely ironic that the 'gift' shop sold Nelson memorabilia, as well as trinkets and things bearing the image of Emma, but nothing featuring the image of Nelson's wife Fanny.

I thought that it was rather hypocritical that a church was making money off of a known adulterer/adulteress.

I did, however, buy a nice pewter beer stein that was engraved with Nelson's plan of attack at Trafalgar! heh-heh!

Billy,

I don't think anyone these days would consider Nelson a saint, even if they did in the past. We should welcome that as it allows us to appreciate the true man.

As for St Paul's Cathedral, I do not really find their attitude 'ironic' since obviously they live in the modern world too. Whilst acknowledging Nelson's status as a hero, with the ultimate honour having his tomb, they would also acknowledge his faults. Probably everything that is sold in their shop has been passed before a committee, which might even possibly include the Dean and the Bishop of London, for examination as to its suitability. If they didn't think it suitable I'm sure they wouldn't sell it. From a commercial angle, and they would have partly to look at the shop in that light as it is a business in that sense, Emma is the better selling point in the mind of the general public. I am sure however they would consider books, etc. about Fanny were any offered.

Finally, it crossed my mind as to why they would sell beer steins, when this would seem to avocate drunkeness?

They sell chocolate too in St Paul's shop. Another un-PC product!

Nelson's tomb was closed though, when I visited, and in a way, I was rather glad. It would seem like the end of the pilgrimage, with nothing more to look forward to; though 'pilgrimage' is the wrong word since we've agreed he wasn't a saint.


But certainly a hero - and the more I read about this period, you realise it was an age of heroes. We may have reservations now about some of the the imperial adventures they were involved in, but they were the nation's bulwark in times of great danger and the qualities so many of those men exhibited - courage, stoicism, perseverance, loyalty, duty, self-sacrifice - leave me full of admiration.

How about another thread: the other heroes in Nelson's navy.

Tycho,

A very good idea to mention the other naval heroes of the period in another thread, since of course Nelson was only one of many. I can think of a few, but perhaps it might be worth mentioning some of the lesser ones too, together with their exploits, that do not usually receive their due. I am sure a lot of 'googling' will be going on here!

Actually, I'm not sure I have many reservations about the activities that they were engaged in, after all England's goal was to stop the French from invading her own shores and obtaining European domination. That it might have impinged on other nations was unfortunate. I am thinking here particularly of Copenhagen, where Denmark had joined with Sweden in alliance with Russia, a French satellite so far as was known at the time, at least I think by the British fleet. The result of this was that the supply of timber for ships masts and other products, a long running trade which the Royal Navy depended on, could have stopped. This would have meant, at the least, a serious shortage of spars - and at the worst, making the ships inoperable and leaving the country in peril of a French invasion. Other operations too would have been either seriously curtailed or abandoned.

So, although I don't think anyone in the British fleet relished the idea of fighting the Danes, the 'Brothers of Englishmen' as Nelson called them, it just had to be done. It is unfortunate that many Danes today still regard Nelson with distaste, without thinking of the 'bigger picture' which he always strove to do. It is unfortunate too that they seem to blame Nelson for the attack and destruction caused to Copenhagen in 1807!

Perhaps you'd like to kick off with the heroes thread?

Kester

Kester -

When I talked about 'reservations' about what Nelson's navy did, I didn't mean to give the impression that I questioned the defence of our own shores - not at all - I was just thinking of the whole idea of the navy as the tool of Empire. I know the historical pendulum is swinging back a little now to examine some of the benefits of imperialism, and not only to the imperialists - the historian Niall Ferguson has written on this - but I do think that the self-questioning that went on with the decline of Empire was a necessary process. Many cruelties and much exploitation were also perpetrated in its name. The point I was making was that the decisions of politicians, and the uses they put the navy to, may sometimes be questionable, but the admirable qualities of the men who carried out those orders are breathtaking.

(We are all a bit shame-faced about Empire down here in Somerset. Bristol got fabulously rich on slavery, tobacco and sugar from the colonies. How un-PC can you get!)

Re: the heroes thread. I am a fairly new Nelsonite and can't speak in any detail about others, I simply don't know enough, though I admire Collingwood, Ball and Hardy.

Why don't you start the thread?

Tycho,

No, of course you didn't, and I slightly had the wrong end of the stick!

Although, as you say, its only natural to want to investigate our colonial past I did actually think that it might have gone to far the other way. I can't actually beleive that nothing good came of the old empire, as some people have implied. I think we have to remember too, that the initial links with those parts of the world which we are supposed to have more or less 'violated', came about through trade. Britain is after all, a trading nation.

Also, if we were that bad, how is it then that countries which became self standing after their independence from us, are now quite happy to be members of the Commonwealth?

Ok, I'll start off a new heroes thread, if you like.

Kester.

Tycho, Billy and Kester

I for one person can say that we here in the US are pretty darned glad that you colonized! Every family has troubles now and again (see 1776 and 1812) but family is family. Regading the Nelson as hero or flawed hero depending on your point of view- I have a great deal of trouble finding anyone in history David-Moses-Washington-Jefferson-Eisenhower-Patton who did extraordinary things in one area of their life without somehow mucking up others.

Yes-Nelson was flawed, he was married and had an affair, even fathered a daughter. He was a bit vain and tempermental, but what I find so interesting is that he could inspire others to do more than they thought themselves capable of. He expected the best from his officers and men and expected even more from himself.

In my office at work hangs the words. "Lead by example" in Latin. I try to do that and Nelson certainly did.

Sarpy:

If you are interested in Nelson as a leader there is a very interesting book called 'Nelson's Way: leadership lessons from the great commander'
by Stephanie Jones and Jonathan Gosling.

It's one of a series on leadership. It analyses Nelson's leadership skills under various headings such as vocation, courage, passion, diligence etc. and show how those in positions of responsibility can learn from them and incorporate them into their own professional lives.

It's thought provoking and stimulating and not at all heavy to read. It's amusing that Emma comes under work/life balance! That's one way of putting it.

The foreword is by N.A.M Rodger, the distinguished naval historian.

(Nicholas Brealey Publishing ISBN 13 978 - 185788 -371 -3.) I got mine from Amazon.

Re: the US as a colony - you must come over to our National Archive at Kew - some of the Colonial Office material from the time of the rebellion (oops, war of independence) makes absolutely fascinating reading, not least the archives relating to those still loyal to the Crown.

Enjoy your pictures. I have a 'Nelson area' on the staircase but I'll need to move it. People stop and stare too long. One friend missed her footing, fell and broke two ribs!

Sarpy,

I was interested in your comment that "we here in the US are pretty darned glad that you colonized!" Really? I would like to know what you meant by that, although I don't think this is really the place to start a long discussion about the pros and cons of that subject.

One of my favourite remarks by Nelson comes from, I think, the beginning of a letter to Fanny around March 1795. I don't have the exact reference to hand, but I believe he said, 'My life and my good name are in my own keeping.' Perhaps someone can find the exact reference, but I thought what a wonderful and thought provoking expression? It goes, I think, for all of us.

Kester

Kester

yes, the reference is in a letter to Fanny written from the Agamemnon at Sea, 10 March 1795:

'My character and good name are in my own keeping. Life with disgrace is dreadful. A glorious death is to be envied; and if anything happens to me, recollect that death is a debt we must all pay, and whether now,or a few years hence, could be of little consequence.

Why not carry on your 'colonialism' conversation on the 'Off-topic' thread Inside Nelson's World?