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| Joseph Haydn, the Nelson Mass etc. etc. http://www.nelsonandhisworld.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=451 |
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| Author: | Mark Barrett [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Joseph Haydn, the Nelson Mass etc. etc. |
. . Did any of you see the 4-part series recently on BBC2 - "The Birth of British Music". I didn't manage to watch it at the time but have been catching up since using iPlayer. If you can find time I would encourage you all to to watch the one about Joseph Haydn. His life spanned that of Nelson (1732-1809) - his Missa in Angustiis ("Mass for troubled times") became known as the Nelson Mass - and of course Nelson and the Hamiltons met with Haydn on their way back from Italy in 1800. There is only brief mention in the programme of the association with Nelson but it gives an excellent picture of the late-Georgian world both in Britain and wider afield. Here is a link to the programme - but I don't know if it will open on your computer if you don't already have the iPlayer software loaded. Click here Alternatively here is the main iPlayer website - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/ - or doubtless many of you have T.V.'s with some kind of "catch up" facility on them. Hope you can manage to find your way to it some way or another and that you enjoy it. MB |
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| Author: | tycho [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:05 pm ] |
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Thanks for the link, Mark. Yes, the Nelson Mass is a great piece of music. I was in a choir that sang the Mass in my student days and can still remember most of it. There is a story that I have often heard quoted but never seen confirmed with any authority that Nelson and Haydn got on very well (that's true, at least) and that they exchanged gifts, a watch from Nelson and a pen from Haydn (maybe a legend.) Any pointers? Fiddler - this is your field, I think. |
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| Author: | Lesley [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:41 pm ] |
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I just watched the final one - so saw three out of four. Missed the first one as my TV recording (old technology...) went wrong. They were superb programmes, and what is most noteworthy of all is that they were not docu-dramas. Nobody dressed up as Haydn, Nelson, or whatever! How absolutely refreshing. 
Lesley Adkins |
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| Author: | Devenish [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:56 am ] |
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I'm afraid I missed that (Haydn being one of my favourite composers) and unfortunately Iplayer does not seem to be available abroad, or at least not yet. I note that it has been removed from the BBC site now too. Anyway I hope the rest of you enjoyed it! Haydn and Nelson seem to have struck up an almost instant raporé and I believe I also read somewhere that when Haydn died (200 years ago this year, of course) a drawing of a British warship was found amongst his papers. I wondered how that came to be there; did he acquire it during his time in England, or was it through Nelson? Any one any ideas? |
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| Author: | Fiddler [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:35 pm ] |
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Thank you Mark, I would have enjoyed this very much...but I missed it. I've been struggling with unreliable or no internet access in a rural area... Anna, I've read that the story of the pen - watch swap originated with Georg Griesinger, a friend of Haydn's and author of an early biography of the composer that I believe is still considered reasonably sound by scholars. So perhaps it's more than just a nice yarn. " When Lord Nelson traveled through Vienna, he asked for a worn out pen that Haydn had used in his composing, and made him a present of his watch in return." (Georg August Griesinger, Biographical Notes Concerning Joseph Haydn) In some accounts Nelson asks for the pen with which Haydn wrote out the D minor mass; and gives Haydn his own "gold" watch. Haydn wrote this mass in July and August 1798, and met Nelson in September 1800. I wonder if he would have been able to produce that very pen two years later... There are a few texts out there specifically dealing with this famous meeting, none of which I've read.  Among them are the The Nelson Society's Admiral Nelson and Joseph Haydn, an English translation of Otto Erich Deutsch's work originally published in German. Unfortunately the Nelson Society's on-line store is down indefinitely. (No phone orders either.) I'm having a copy sent to my local library through the ILLiad program, because used editions listed on-line are priced at anywhere between $64 and $250. Read German and save money: copies of Admiral Nelson und Joseph Haydn start at around $15.00.
"Admiral Nelson's Journey Through Germany" by R. P. Keigwin appeared in The Mariner's Mirror, volume 21, number 2, 1935. Anyone have The Mariner's Mirror on CD ROM, or a hard copy? The June 1939 edition of The Musical Times and Singing-Class Circular included D. Millar Craig's "When Haydn Met Nelson." The library here seems to have one in the closed stacks I can copy. Kester, Carola Oman, in Nelson, states that Haydn "left in his will engravings of Lord Nelson and Aboukir Bay." Maybe the warship drawing was in with those? I'd like to know what happened to the watch! That would be worth double relic points. Gretchen |
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| Author: | Devenish [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:43 pm ] |
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Gretchen, In the Nelson Society's publication, which is copyright so I won't reproduce it verbatim, it says that George August Griesinger in his 'Biographische Notizen uber Joseph Haydn' (Vienna 1810), which you mentioned, makes two statements regarding the pen and the watch: First, that whilst in Vienna Nelson merely asked Haydn for one of his old pens, but doesn't mention anything about its having written the D Minor Mass. (My guess is that this was a later elaboration); Secondly, he then says that the French took Michael, his brother's, money and two silver watches in 1800, and that Haydn sent him a gold watch to replace them and would send money when it became available. The inference is that this was Nelson's watch, since it was not found amongst Haydn's possessions on his death, and that he had given it away to his brother. Similarly, Nelson does not seem to have preserved Haydn's pen and it is assumed that that became lost in England. In passing, it would be interesting to know if anyone in Austria has seriously investigated Michael Haydn's possessions for, seemingly, Nelson's watch or anyone in England knows of the whereabouts of Haydn's pen! Gretchen, thanks from the pointer to Carola Oman and you may be right. |
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| Author: | tycho [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:11 am ] |
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Kester & Gretchen, many thanks for comments, and for that comprehensive list of sources, Gretchen. I knew you'd have the 'back-up'! |
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