Nelson & His World

Does anyone have access to a Trafalgar Roll? I am trying to establish whether there was a Jack Rider on Victory at Trafalgar.

I have almost completed the anthology of poems I'm preparing for Nelson's 250th, and have come across a traditional play, performed annually at Easter in the north of England, into which verses about Nelson have been inserted. It is said that this was in tribute to one of the players, Jack Rider, who was loblolly boy on Victory at Trafalgar.

T.i.a. for any help.

There was no Jack Rider onboard the Victory.

There was a James Rider, 32 year old sailmakers mate onboard the Royal Sovereign and a William Ryder (or Rider) was killed in action onboard the Temeraire - but he was 50 yrs old.

Many thanks for that.

I wonder if James was nicknamed Jack since he was an ex-sailor.
Another thought. Does the Trafalgar Roll state where the men came from?
Jack was from the Coniston area. If James was too, that might be some sort of tentative confirmation.

Regret neither of the Ryder / Riders were from that area - James was from Richmond, Yorkshire and William from 'Middlesex' (no better).

Checking the geographical database, there are only 19 men from Westmorland, and only one of those onboard the Victory - a Matthew Hartley from Kendal, an able seaman.

Many thanks indeed for that information. I can leave the Jack Rider story out of the commentary.

I wonder how many others made false claims about war service. Mira has examined the records of the Old Bailey and found that, post-Trafalgar, criminals often claimed 'service under Lord Nelson' in mitigation.

And the Prince of Wales frequently claimed to have fought at Waterloo, often when actually in the presence of the Duke of Wellington. When he asked Wellington to confirm that he had been there, the Iron Duke replied, 'I have often heard you say so, Sir'.

..."I wonder how many others made false claims about war service. Mira has examined the records of the Old Bailey and found that, post-Trafalgar, criminals often claimed 'service under Lord Nelson' in mitigation"...
I believe it was not uncommon; on another forum, someone is investigating the claims of a man called Charles Corlett, a Manxman, who was apparently buried in 1862 with a naval guard of honour, having claimed to have been present at several of the great battles - not just Trafalgar, but also Copenhagen and the Nile. However, although he had served in the navy... researchers have found not a trace of him at the battles he mentioned.

I've discovered a little more on Jack Rider, supposedly of 'Victory':


Robert Kearton, a miner and librarian at the Grassington Mechanics' Institute says: 'We suspect that Lord Nelson's name was introduced [into the play] out of respect for the late Jack Rider, of Linton, an old tar who for many years was one of the 'maskers' or players in the district from whence our version was obtained. Jack was 'loblolly boy' on board 'Victory' and one of the group that surrounded the dying hero of Trafalgar.' Jack supposedly lost two fingers at Trafalgar. 'Old Jack often used to relate his accident, and Captain Carslake, now of Sidmouth, who at the time was one of his officers, permits us to add his corroboration of the truth'.

From 'Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of England' edited by Robert Bell. www.worldwideschool.org/library/lit/poe ... lads/chap6

I have been in correspondence with a Dr Cawte who is researching the history of the Lancashire Pace Egging Song.

I looked up Captain Carslake on the genuki genealogical site -
www.genuki.org.uk and, yes, there was a John Carslake, Midshipman, in Victory at Trafalgar. He came from Devon, so was presumably the Captain Carslake of Sidmouth in Devon who 'corroborated' this apparently fictitious story of the wounded loblolly man.

Odd.

Ther is always the possibility of a false name or change of name. Perhaps Jack Rider is his real name, but he had entered under a different name. Or perhaps he adopted the name Jack Rider in later life (having deserted his ship?).

Sorry, Tony, I've only just noticed your comment.

Was any record kept of the names of the wounded on each ship and the nature of their wounds or was there just a numerical tally? If there is any sort of record it might be possible to find out if anyone lost fingers.

The Carslake connection suggests that there might be some sort of truth in the story.

There were lists of the names of officers wounded, but usually only numerical tallies of others.

It was very rare for the names of lower ranks to be mentioned in dispatches. Nelson's mention of his coxswain John Sykes in the list of the wounded at Cadiz was one such rare exception