Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:22 pm 
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I have also come across translations as ‘the White Cape’, and ‘the cape of the furthest point’, but without explanations of the derivation.

It seems to me that the earlier English pronunciation of Traffle-GAR is still a long way from the Spanish pronunciation, which, as I understand it, is nearer Trah-fahl-GAHR, with all the A’s pronounced ‘ah’ as in ‘father’. But I don’t speak Spanish so may be completely wrong. Brian? – you seem to be the expert.

A couple of sources say that the earlier English pronunciation was with the accent on both the first and the last syllables.

‘A member of the Aristocracy’ provides the following advice on the pronunciation of Trafalgar in ‘Manners and Rules of Good Society Or Solecisms to Be Avoided’: – ‘Accent on the last syllable as regards the peer of that name, not otherwise’.

Debrett’s current guidance on the pronunciation of Trafalgar is ‘Traffle-gar’ in a title only.

On the basis that the function of language is communication, I shall continue to say ‘TreFALgur Square’ to London cabbies, if not to Lord Nelson.

Here is a snippet from Punch (1905):
Quote:
A gentleman writes to a contemporary to ask, ‘How is Trafalgar pronounced?’
The answer is, ‘Wrong’.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Brian!

I can try and e-mail the sound file to you; maybe I made phonetic hash of what I (thought I) heard!


Gretchen


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:45 pm 
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OK Tony, but don't say it to cabbies in Cadiz (pronounced CAHdiz because there is an accent on the 'a'!). Spaniards as you say, give full force to all the syllables unlike us Brits.

Brian


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:52 pm 
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Fiddler!

Sorry to be absurdly pickie. it doesn't really matter.

What is interesting is what the modern version of the name as used in arabic atlases (spelt 'al-taraf al-aghar') means. We have had a guess at 'taraf al-ghar' but not that one.

Perhaps your friend Hassan knows.

Regards

Brian


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Brian!

I'll ask him.


Gretchen


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:05 pm 
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I think the scan in a verse of Kipling's "Puck's Song" settles it for me—

"See you the ferny ride that steals
Into the oak-woods far?
O that was whence they hewed the keels
That rolled to Trafalgar."


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Many thanks for your post, Trackhorse, and welcome to the forum and for the reference to Puck's Song - published in 1906, so it's very interesting to see the 'old' pronounciation used so late. In common parlance, Tra-fal-GAR seems to have been superseded by Tra-FAL-gar long before this. I just wonder, though, whether Kipling was aware of the old pronounciation and used it either for its archaic effect, in keeping with the magical/fantasy nature of the book, or whether he needed to have that pronounciation to fit his chosen metre. Kipling's scansion was always scrupulously accurate, and the old pronounciation suits his purpose exactly here.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:12 pm 
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You're welcome. I agree with your analysis of Kipling's "reasons" for the rhyme. I'd say "all of the above"! What brought it to mind was the chorus of a contemporary song written in the folk idiom: "Carrying Nelson Home". Though performers (including the song's author Nicely done by John Roberts here—
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4gv8RlDkIk) use the contemporary pronunciation, Kipling's seems to "scan" better.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Thank you again for posting that link to 'Carrying Nelson Home'. I'd never heard it before. What a wonderful, haunting melody and that last verse! Heavens, it made me cry!

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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:48 pm 
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I managed to find the lyrics to 'Carrying Nelson Home by Mike O'Connor (link: http://www.tomkastle.com/hilo-lyrics.htm)

(This replaces an earlier link to a version which gave 'Admiral's pouch' instead of 'Admiral's barge' in the last verse)

Ease the bow spring. Gently set the foresheets on the windward side.
Let go fore and aft, and as she turns sail her full and bye to catch the evening tide.
Shake out those topsails. Feel the seas roll under that she knows so well
Find a star to guide her to the dawn. And then let her greet the long Atlantic swell.

Sing me a shanty, Canta del cabo San Vicente,
Chantez des marins du Nile
Sing a hymn of Trafalgar.

Stream the log now, for she's heeling with a land breeze to inspire
Orange scented from the groves of Andalucia. And within my mind Cadiz still gleams with fire.
Give her sea room. Put St. Vincent well astern by break of day
Then you shorten sail and harden up those sheets, and close hauled we'll make the Northings slip away.

One point to leeward, For the rolling seas are getting shorter now,
They remind me of the lights of far Hyeres, and they tell me Biscay's on the starboard bow.
Shake out your reef. For carried on the breeze that's setting fair
Are spices from the quays of Lorient, (Lorry on) You can sail her free to weather Finisterre.

Ease your main sheets, for it's soon we'll see the harbour lights of home,
Anchor, make-good every sheet and halliard, remembering just who you have on board.
Pipe me ashore, gently hoist aloft your keg of brandy wine.
Make ready to receive the Admiral's barge. Lower me easy, I'm going ashore one last time.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:10 am 
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Hi Anna,

Yes, it's pretty good. For some contemporary songs, you'd think they were "written" 200 years ago. I'm trying to learn it. Search also on YouTube for "Nelson's Death". Let me know if you don't find it.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:58 pm 
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Of course, its a matter of taste, but I think this is a pretty good version, I like the sadness in the slightly slower but driving rhythm and the diction of the words are good too. The chorus harmony is lovely. Terry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDSYHcucko


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Terry,

Yes, this is the version I've been looking for! Excellent. Many thanks.

Cliff


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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Yes, another lovely version, Terry. Is there a hint of Irish in his voice?

I too have been trying to learn the song - and it's not easy! It's one of those melodies that you can hear in your head but is quite difficult to remember when you attempt to sing. Cliff - I dare you to post your efforts here! (Kidding).

Tony, I wonder if it might be an idea to have a separate thread for the posts on Carrying Nelson Home. It would make them easier to locate later. I've already opened a thread 'Inside Nelson's World'; maybe you could move them there?

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 Post subject: Re: How do you say Trafalgar?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Anna,

Well, I've pretty much got the tune— it's the words that are the hard part. If ever I get that— and hold of a video camera— I'll upload something to YouTube.

C.


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