Nelson & His World

I believe that a crew member of the HMS Tonnant is an ancestor of mine. Data published by the Public Records Office suggests that he was present at Trafalgar.

I'm trying to find out about his subsequent career on the Tonnant and I wonder if anyone has any information from the ship's pay books or rosters.

I live in the United States and know that the Tonnant was the flagship of the British fleet which attacked Washington, Fort McHenry and New Orleans in 1814. I'd like to find out if my ancestor (Ordinary Seaman James Leith) was present on those occasions.

Hello Hailwood, and welcome to the forum from me.

I don't have any information from the Tonnant's pay books and musters, but she was paid off on 7 July 1811 and remained out of commission until January 1814. After that length of time out of commission it is perhaps unlikely that many of the same crew would have re-entered the ship.

Other information from the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll that you may or may not have is that:
James Leith's birthplace was Grange, Antrim, he entered the Tonnant on 22 May 1803 from the Salvador del Mundo, having been pressed. He was awarded prize money of £1 17s 8d and granted a Parliamentary Award of £4 12s 6d. On 29 May 1803 he made an allotment of 11s 8d per month to his mother - Paid Coleraine [ADM27/9].

Thanks, Tony. You've already increased my knowledge of James Leith's naval career.

I was puzzled as to how and why this country boy had found his way into the navy and suspected that he had been a petty criminal and subjected to the Quota Act. However, the fact that he was pressed also raises other questions.

I have been led to beieve that press gangs only operated in major ports (e.g, in Ireland that would have meant Belfast, Derry, Dublin, etc.). I believe that James may have been a farm labourer and it seems unlikely that he would have strayed outside his rural environs in County Antrim. He was also unlikely to have previous maritime experience and consequently hardly prime material for the navy.

Do you know anthing about his previous ship, the Salvador del Mundo? I assume that she was a captured Spanish ship.

Yes, the Salvador del Mundo was a Spanish first rate ship (112 guns) captured in the Battle of Cape St Vincent in 1797. She was not put into active service in the British Navy, but in 1803 was commissioned as the port admiral's ship at Plymouth and used as a receiving ship for new recruits. She remained in Plymouth.

I know of an account of another Irish farm labourer who was pressed and held in the Salvador del Mundo at exactly the same time as your ancestor (May 1803). He had come over to England from Ireland to get work during the hay making season. The account is from Frederick Hoffman, who was a lieutenant in the Minotaur at that time, and he describes going on board the Salvador del Mundo with his captain (who was my ancestor!) to choose men for the Minotaur. It is a humorous and not particularly flattering account! Hoffman does need to be taken with a large pinch of salt! He wrote his memoirs some years later, and he writes for effect, no doubt exaggerating at times, and many people that he describes come across as caricatures. He was a snob, prided himself for his education and erudition, and often ridicules other officers he considered less well educted or less well read! However, I have checked the Minotaur's log and it is consistent with his account. The account is online here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27520/27 ... .html#ch14 which should take you to chapter 14. Scroll down to pg 188 for the Salvador del Mundo (or Sally-waiter-de-Modo as my ancestor called her), and the Irishman's story.

One thing that puzzles me is that this Irishman was pressed near London (Lunnen) but was taken by tender from London to Plymouth, instead of being entered into a ship at Sheerness or the Nore. Do any other members have any ideas as to why that might be? This was the recommencement of the war, and the channel fleet was gathering at Plymouth, still very short of men, so maybe the tender was needed at Plymouth and would remain there. The first part of the chapter is well worth reading for an appreciation of the difficulties in fitting out and manning a ship with the shortage of men at the beginning of the war.

Tony, you're a mine of information! The story of the other Irish labourer's impressment may help explain James Leith's fate. I look forward to reading that account.

Another fact that perplexes me is your information that James' allottment to his mother was paid in Coleraine. My belief is that James came from the Grange of Doagh (in South County Antrim) quite a distance (in 19th Century terms) from Coleraine. Do you know what the procedure was for paying out these monies to families? Presumably the Navy or Government had certain points around the country where this money could be collected by relatives rather than it being distributed locally.

Welcome to the forum, Hailwood!

There was some discussion a little while ago about seamen arranging remittances to family members. Scroll down to the end of the following thread for the relevant comment:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=557

The thread on 'Guard ships and Receiving ships' might also provide interesting background information to your ancestor's service:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=569

Hello, Everyone.

I've read the conversation in this thread with great interest as I suspect I may also have an ancestor who served on the Tonnant and I would love to be able to find out more about him - in particular to determine whether the record I've found is of the right person. If anyone can help with information, or perhaps redirect me to a site where I could find out more, that would be excellent.

The man's name was Benjamin Thomas and he was awarded the Naval General Service Medal in December 1814. He had been serving on the Tonnant as Quartermaster's Mate.

There is a family story that he went on to become a Lieutenant in the RN, but I've never been able to find any proof of this. Does anyone know how I can check this, please? It seems that records from this period are very scarce.

I know that Benjamin died between 1820 and 1827. Many grateful thanks in advance for any assistance that can be provided.

Regards,
OzJen

Jen

Unfortunately I am probably the bearer of bad news - i.e. I think you are mixing up 2 different men here.

I can see the details of the Benjamin Thomas who was awarded the NGSM for a boat action on 14th December 1814.

However just to explain a bit more about that medal. It was not awarded at the time of the individual battles & actions but many years later - retrospectively - in 1847. And it was not awarded if the person had died in the meantime.

So if your Benjamin Thomas died between 1820 and 1827 it has to be a different man.

I am not saying we can definitely help here but can you expand on what more you know about your ancestor - even if it is only family stories.

MB

Thanks, Mark. It must be a different man - a shame; having a connection like that would have been very exciting for my naval Dad.

My Benjamin was said to have reached the rank of Lieutenant in the RN - it's recorded next to his photo in a very old family photo album and on his daughter's marriage certificate. What I now know of him is that he was:
-in Bristol in 1818 when he married my g-g-g-g-grandmother,
-in Bristol in 1819 when his first son was born,
-in Portsea in 1820 when the second son arrived,
-may have died in Sept 1825 in Bristol (found this detail yesterday). If this is him, he was 32 and living in John Street when he died - very young for a stocky man who looks strong and healthy in his photo.
-most family events (BMD) seem to have been recorded at St. John the Baptist's Church in Bristol,
-he may have been born in Kent or Wales (according to the photo album)

I have hunted everywhere I can think of to find details about his naval career, but information from this time seems very scarce indeed (or else I'm just not looking in the right place).

If anyone is able to help me solve this mystery in any way, I will be very grateful indeed.

OzJen

Jen

Now I am really getting confused!

It's not possible that you could have a photograph of a person who died in the 1820's as the first recorded photograph of a person was not until the 1830's. Queen Victoria was not photographed until the 1840's.

I would suggest that it is likely to be taken in the 1850's at the very earliest or most likely later than that.

Is it a posed portrait photograph? And is he in uniform in the photograph?

MB

That's a good point, Mark ... I hadn't thought about that in relation to the date - now I'm confused as well! Silly that I didn't think of it - because it's labelled that way, I didn't think about the date in question and the development of photo technology!

The picture in the album is supposed to be Benjamin (a posed photograph) and it's next to one of his wife which was clearly taken in the same place as they are posed next to the same urn on a stand. Unfortunately, no, he's not in uniform. Years ago, someone has gone through this old album and labelled everyone. The photo I'm referring to is labelled as him with the added info about him being a Lieutenant in the RN. If it's not Benjamin, I wonder who it would be ... I have a photo of his eldest son, too, and they are definitely not the same person. Perhaps he's g-g-g-g-grandmother's 2nd or 3rd husband and not the first one (she had 3). I will try and work it out based on the clothing. Thanks for pointing that out to me!
Hmmm another puzzle to solve ...

Despite that little problem, if it's any help, since I put up the original posting, I've heard from someone on RootsChat that a Benjamin Thomas passed his Lieutenant 'exams' in 1811, according to a file in the National Archives in London - (I'm in Sydney). This would fit the time period.

Thanks for your interest,
Jen

Jen,

It is difficult to know how well informed people are when they write on this site; but let me assume you are as unfamiliar with naval records as you are far away.
1. Records on this period are not rare or incomplete as you seem to think. On the contrary; the details and career of anyone who was in the service of the crown (including convicts) alongside all aspects of service and ship life are amply recorded. The problem is that there is no central register of men except commissioned officers, so the career of each has to be traced from ship to ship. Each had a Muster Book containing important details like age, whether he was a volunteer or pressed man, where he joined the ship, from which vessel (if relevant) he came and to which he was discharged. Following the trail is not difficult but time consuming
2. Sorry to pour cold water, but Syrett and Dinardo’s classic ‘The Commissioned Sea Officers of the Royal navy 1669-1815’ contains no entry for any Benjamin Thomas. Likewise there is no lieutenant with this name in the Navy List of 1823 (which I happen to have at hand)
3. However, if a man with this name passed the lieutenant’s exam in 1811, there is a possible explanation for his non-appearance in the lists of commissioned officers. The situation was that the fact that a man passed the examination did not make him a lieutenant; he had to be actually appointed as a lieutenant to a particular ship. And since at that time there were more people who had passed the exam available than vacancies into which they could be appointed, the navy was full of what was called ‘passed midshipmen’. It is perfectly possible that your ancestor was in this position and that family history ‘blurred’ the actuality of his situation
4. If indeed it was your ancestor who passed the examination in 1811 then with luck you might be able to find out a lot. There were regulations about who was eligible to be a lieutenant in terms of age, experience and record. Thus, candidates had to produce a certificate of service listing all the ships on which they had served, the rank(s) held, who was the captain etc. They also had to produce a baptismal certificate showing place, date of birth (more or less) and sometimes parents. All were retained on the files for the year which are now lodged in the National Archives at Kew.
5. However the dates do not fit well. If he died in Sept 1825 in Bristol at the age of 32, he would have been born in 1793 and only 18 in 1811. Technically the minimum age for taking the lieutenant’s exam was 20; though there were plenty of examples of people falsifying their ages. Likewise he could hardly be the man in the photograph since he would have been 57 in 1850, and you say the man portrayed is young . Likewise, there is no lieutenant with the name of Benjamin Thomas in the Navy List of 1831; and his name does not appear in O’Byrne’s Biographical Dictionary of all living naval officers which was published in 1849. Doesn’t look good.

Brian

Hi Jen - Brian made his post while I was composing mine, and he has made many of the points I was about to make, but I will post mine too anyway - sorry for the duplication!

As Mark says, it looks as though we have information for two, if not three, different men here. Is the death in 1825 definitely 'your' Benjamin Thomas, or is it just a possible name match? I feel sure there would have been a few different men of that name in Bristol around that time.

It looks like your best bet at the moment is to follow up the Lieutenant's passing certificate identified in Rootschat (ADM 107/43 pages 532-533 and ADM 6/109 page 271). That will provide more information on that man's previous service and may provide more clues. If you can't get a copy of the relevant pages from the National Archives, then you could commission a local researcher in London to copy it for you, which shouldn't be too expensive. That Benjamin Thomas is also listed in the Naval Chronicle vol 26 (July-Dec 1811) as a midshipman who passed for lieutenant around July 1811 at Sheerness.

However, it seems probable that he never received a commission, as he is not listed in the Navy List for 1815, and there is no entry for him in Syrett & DiNardo's 'Commissioned Sea Officers of the Royal Navy 1660-1815'. Thus he may have remained as a 'passed midshipman' rather than receiving promotion to lieutenant, although he may well have served as an acting lieutenant without a commission. If so, he would be justified in claiming he had served as a lieutenant.

Your information on the Benjamin Thomas who received the NGSM for the boat action on 14 Dec 1814 is that he was a Quartermaster's mate which suggests this is a different man, quite apart from Mark's point that he must have lived until 1847 to receive the medal. By the way, this was a very large boat action indeed, involving about 45 boats from 14 British ships and over 1,000 men on Lake Borgne during the British advance on New Orleans in the War of 1812. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Borgne

A search of the National Archives catalogue suggests there were a number of men named Benjamin Thomas, more than one of whom later received a pension from Greenwich Hospital. See some of the later entries in this list: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cata ... mage1.y=12 Those entries may well be worth following up.

Jen

Still some confusion in my mind here.

You say that BT is shown as Lieutenant on his daughter's marriage certificate. Is he also described as Deceased since the marriage must have taken place long after 1827 when you say you know he was dead.

Also - do you by any chance have a scan of the photograph which is supposedly BT? If so maybe you could upload it or if you prefer email it to me and I will do the honours.

If we could come to a consensus on the approximate date of the photo I feel sure that that would help to keep us on the right track.

MB

Thank you, Tony and Brian for your replies. You've both made the right assumption; I'm not very experienced with RN records as this research on Benjamin is the first time I've needed to come into contact with them. You've both explained a lot that I didn't know, which is very helpful.

I will contact the NA and see what the procedure is for trying to obtain a copy of the information from 1911 and hopefully I will get lucky.

To clarify, Mark, Benjamin is listed as "Lieutenant RN, deceased" on his daughter's marriage certificate from 1839. After our exchange of yesterday, and looking at dates, I suspect the fellow in the photo would be 4g-grandmother Jemima's 2nd husband. This man seems to have been important to my 3g-grandmother Clarissa who is the one who has kept the photos. He witnessed Clarissa's marriage certificate. (Note different number of g's!). I'd say a later generation has annotated the photo, based on family stories. I have attached the photo. The man is not young, but certainly not elderly - stocky and middle-aged, so his age fits well with photography and what I know of him so far.

My ASSUMPTION that Benjamin died in 1825 is based on a few things, but certainly not accepted 100%:
- My 4g grandmother, Jemima, remarried in Oct 1827, so Benjamin had certainly met his demise by then,
- Benjamin's last child was born in 1820,
- He is supposed to have been in Bristol and there is a death in the parish registers of the correct church (St John the Baptist, Bristol) for a Benjmain Thomas in 1825,
- As it is clear that the photo I have is not of Benjamin, the stated age at death of 32 could be possible, although as has been noted, that would make him very young to be doing his lieutenant's exams in 1811.

There is one problem with the 1825 death - his first daughter (3g grandmother, Clarissa) seems to have been baptised in 1826 at the age of 8yrs, with her father, Benjamin, being listed on the baptism as an engraver. Perhaps her mother, Jemima, didn't say he had already died and it was actually the fellow who would become her 2nd husband in attendance? I'm not sure about this, but certainly Benjamin was deceased by the middle of the following year, 1827.

More puzzles to solve!

Jen