Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Go to this page and play the video and you will see what I mean

Click here

The artist says he believes that a work of art should "provoke".

My own take on that is that there is a time and a place for such indulgence and this is neither the time NOR the place.

MB


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:12 am 
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Mark,

I actually don't have any problems with this, believe it is an interesting project and, like the captain of the 1:1 Victory, think it one of the better ideas that have adorned the fourth plinth in recent times! I get the impression that Peter Goodwin doesn't think it's a bad idea either, although he doesn't mention the project itself.

Of course the word 'provoke' is quite often used by artists in relation to their work, but I think here the artist means in the sense of 'cause to think about', which surely isn't such a bad thing – and he does pose the relevant questions himself. It's nice too to see the model close to and verify that it is accurate. I suppose many may balk at the sails, but then they are not supposed to be of canvas, but relate to the multi-cultural Britain of today. Quite an idea, I thought.

So, no, the idea doesn't worry me at all. What does worry me is the thought that somebody is going to have a go at that (presumably) very expensive bottle!

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Mark, Kester:

I am puzzled. The ship was made by skilled model-makers; the bottle was made by specialist glassworkers; the fabric for the sails was made by African batik artists; the sails were cut and sewn by specialist needlewomen. What is the ‘artist’s’ input into this creation? ‘Ah, Philistine,’ the art critic will say, ‘his was the concept’.

Sorry. The dictionary definition of an artist is ‘one who practises fine art,’ that is, one who has not only a concept in his head, but also a skill in his hands that transmutes his materials – paint, clay, fabric etc. into something else. It is not enough merely to choose the ingredients and use others’ skills to make real the idea you have dreamed up. I have on my sitting room wall, a painting of a jug of flowers. I decided on the jug and the flowers and I paid an artist to paint them for me - exactly as the skilled craftsmen made this chap’s ship in a bottle. It is called ‘commissioning’, which, imho, is something different from artistry.

I know that some artists, such as Henry Moore, work closely with craftsmen, and rely on them for the ultimate realisation of their vision –often on a grand scale - but there is a great deal of preliminary input from the artist – drawings, sketches, reduced-scale maquettes of the image he has created from his own imaginative sources. In this case, however, the ship already exists, the fabrics for the sails, designed and made by somebody else, already exist – just as my jug and flowers already existed. It is just a question of assemblage – and it seems that others, not the ‘artist’ are involved in that. Just what is this ‘artist’s’ input into the finished work?

For the sake of argument, let’s allow that I’m an old Luddite/Philistine/ignoramus, and let’s concede that you don’t have to be able to paint, draw, sculpt to be an artist and that the role of ‘conceptual artist’ is a valid one. Can we make any useful comment on the quality of this ‘concept’ – his only input to the finished work? Is it challenging, provocative etc. as he asserts art should be? The artist claims to be making multiple statements, via this creation, about Nelson and imperialism, London’s multi-ethnicity etc. but they seem to me to be rather rambling, disconnected and incoherent ones, very different from the socio-political art of, say, Paula Rego, which is enigmatic, but also thought-provoking and disturbing about the nature of power and oppression. It is possible to be ‘challenging’ and ‘provocative’ about imperialism and Nelson’s role in it – and I would have no objection at all to something of real power and significance that did that, even in Trafalgar Square – something that came from deep within the artist, and was grounded in profound knowledge. Despite the undoubted skills of the craftsmen, I find this creation banal, superficial and intellectually reductive in its concept. If the ‘artist’ had said, ‘Going to have a bit of fun here and jazz up old Victory a bit,’ then I could have coped with that, I think. Playfulness has its place in art too; but this ‘concept’ is not only trivial, it’s pretentious.

I also find the confusion of purpose here rather irritating. Henry Moore, for example, worked with craftsmen to create something completely new, shapes and forms conceived in his own mind. On the other hand, model makers, ships-in-bottle makers impress us by their skill in perfectly re-creating an existing object on a reduced scale. This creation is neither one thing nor the other: it isn’t a totally original form; neither is it a faithful recreation. It is ‘Victory’ with multi-coloured sails in pretty fabrics. Maybe a more skilled and intellectually rigorous artist might indeed, by the fusion of creativity and craftsmanship, have made a challenging statement about Nelson and imperialism. This is just a pitiful muddle.

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Anna,

Ok, he didn't make the ship, or sew the sails perhaps and he is not the 'artist' in the traditional sense that you give - but then, as you say, he's perhaps a 'conceptual artist' in this case. I don't know much about art in the 'deep' sense, apart from knowing what I like, but I think he has something - even if it's only in the idea.

Found this in Wikipedia about him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinka_Shonibare

Having read it, about his disability and the way he has to work, I wouldn't want to criticise him too much.

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:31 pm 
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Kester:

I wrote a long screed in response to yours - way off topic and, I imagine, profoundly boring to everyone else, so I haven't posted it. We can, if anyone is actually interested, continue the discussion Inside Nelson's World - but until anyone actually does show interest, I'll shut up!

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Anna


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:06 am 
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There's lots in the press at the moment about the unveiling yesterday of Yinka Shonibare's ship in a bottle in Trafalgar Square. There is a particularly good set of 19 photos of HMS Victory on her plinth and in the workshop here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/ ... -shonibare

The sculpture(?) suffers from one absolutely fundamental flaw - it is not designed to be viewed from below! Now it is on its plinth, the blue 'sea' in the bottom of the bottle almost completely obscures the hull for anybody viewing it from nearby.

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:27 am 
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I'm sorry to sound mean-spirited, but I wonder which Government quango paid for this on the nation's overspent credit card??!!

If it's privately funded then I apologise for that comment - but I would still barely give it a pass in GCSE Art.

MB


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:09 pm 
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A quick Google reveals that artwork on the fourth plinth was originally commissioned by the Royal Society of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce but now there is a Fourth Plinth Commissioning Group (a quango, I presume) and funding comes from the National Lottery - though whether the Lottery provides the whole or part of the cost, or whether it includes the Commissioning Group's costs as well as the artist's, I'm not sure. Pressed for time at the moment so haven't read the link in detail:


http://www.london.gov.uk/fourthplinth/c ... /group.jsp

There's a link for Comments, Mark, so rant away!

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:45 pm 
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The ship is apparently an exact replica of the Victory, so lots of craft but no art in that. The piece seems to raise 3 questions:

1. Why put a model of the Victory in Trafalgar Square? Umm, hard question - very thought provoking.

2. Why use batik for the sails? A: because the artist uses batik in all his work.

3. Why is the ship in a bottle? That's got me stumped. Maybe to keep the rain off the sails?

Or did I miss something?

Actually, Q1 may be the important one. The other news this week is that only half of 18-24 year olds know that Nelson was the commander at Trafalgar, and 15% actually believe that Oliver Cromwell defeated Napoloeon at the Battle of Trafalgar.

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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Well I suppose I like my history to be as accurate as possible. I think the concept of the Victory, in a bottle, in full sail, in Trafalgar Square, is excellent. The colourfull sail idea however seems too frivolous and I just don't like the memory of Trafalgar and Nelson being trivialised. Sorry to appear so grumpy. On the plus side I suppose it may get those not interested in the subject to ask questions and find out more, so maybe it's not all bad.


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Sorry to keep bleating on. But if somebody made up a comedy sketch about a "Fourth Plinth Commissiong Group" with 10 members - I am sure it would be banned as too fanciful and ridiculous.

And yet here they are:
Chair:
* Ekow Eshun - Artistic Director, Institute of Contemporary Art
Members:
* Michaela Crimmin - Head of Arts, RSA
* Iwona Blazwick - Director of Whitechapel Gallery
* Mick Brundle - Principal, Arup Associates
* Tamsin Dillon – Head, Platform for Art, Transport for London
* Grayson Perry - Artist
* Richard Rieser - Director, Disability Equality in Education
* Jon Snow - Broadcaster
* Julie Lomax - Head of Visual Arts, Arts Council England, London
Project Director:
* Justine Simons

I read the words Arts Council England and shudder. I wonder what this bunch cost between them. And I wonder who represents the "man on the Clapham omnibus".

As it said in a certain newspaper today:

For too long we have enjoyed an exaggerated idea of our international standing and a standard of living to which we are not entitled.

Sorry but in my mind this piece of pretentious nonsense sums it all up.

As Tony indicates - let's make the understanding of who Nelson was and his historical context our priority. Then if there are a few pennies left in the piggy bank maybe we can afford this type of self-indulgence.

MB


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Cheer up Mark! Looks like a perfect Quango for the present govenment's purge.

Brian
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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:34 pm 
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brian wrote:
Cheer up Mark! Looks like a perfect Quango for the present govenment's purge.

Brian
[


Sorry for the little rant - most unlike me! I think the blood pressure is back to 120/80 :D

But I still think the money could have been better spent - or not spent at all. :D :D

MB


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:02 am 
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On the subect of financial crises I just read today that Charles II found a unique solution to his profligacy - he sold Dunkirk!!

It makes you think!!

MB


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 Post subject: Re: I sense a controversy coming on . . . . . .
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:36 pm 
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"Victory in a Bottle" has prompted a two-page article in the Daily Mail about Nelson and Trafalgar.

I know the DM is not everyone's cup of tea - but I sometimes wonder if their journos are on a bonus scheme for the number of times they get Nelson's name into said paper.

Long may it continue!!

MB


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