Nelson & His World

I just happened to be looking at a website of early stereoscopic photographs - don't ask!!

The following page has thumbnails of some of the images which date from the 1850's.

http://www.londonstereo.com/trwilliams/ ... ries1.html

If you look down at image FS17 you will see it is described as "Robert Drummond - Lord Nelson's Valet".

The listings page says it is the "late" Lord Nelson.

So I wonder if it means Horatio or William?

Any thoughts??

MB

What a find, Mark! Robert Drummond was part of the Admiral's retinue in the Victory at Trafalgar (Roger Knight - 'The Pursuit of Victory' & the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll). It looks as though he is wearing his NGSM in the photo.

It's quite neat isn't it!

It was a bit late when I came across this yesterday but this morning I took a look at the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll.

Drummond would have been in his mid-70's when this photograph was taken which looks about right.

There are photographs of a few other Trafalgar veterans but to my knowledge none who served so closely to Nelson.

I would love to have a copy of the stereoscopic picture and view it in 3D. Even in this hi-tech world we live in I find something really intriguing about these stereoscopic pictures.

I did a search on the NMM website and there is no indication that they have a copy.

MB

What a fascinating find, Mark - your bloodhound traits lead you to some amazing discoveries.

This set me thinking about compiling a list of Nelson's servants (and Lady Hamilton's), with, if possible, a few biographical details. The role of servants in the 18th century was a fascinating one - the master/mistress as dependent on the servant for the running of their lives as the servant was dependent on the master for the means of life itself. Many were loyal throughout life, others not so. Servants' appearances in court make fascinating reading: sometimes collusive in regrettable behaviour, sometimes ready to betray an employer for gain.

Off the top of my head - I'm pressed for time and can't look up refs. at the moment - I recall the names of a few of Nelson's servants: Tom Allen, (the eccentric who had to be 'retired' ), Frank Lepée (dismissed for drunkenness), Mr Chevalier, who, Nelson records, expressed a wish to leave his service but relented speedily when Nelson agreed. In Naples, Gaetano Spedillo and members of his family were employed. Then there was Francatello, who did the laundry of the Hamilton-Nelson party during their tour of Wales in 1801 and the dastardly Francis Oliver who turned on Emma after receiving much kindness from her, threatening blackmail and colluding in the publication of her letters. There was also a faithful servant who accompanied Emma to France whose name I can't recall - Mira, if you're looking in, I'm sure you can. And there was Julia, who was mentioned on an earlier thread.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41

Can anyone name any more? Or supply biographical details for those named above? It's the sort of subject that is covered in the Nelson Dispatch. Has it ever been done? Check the fading copies in your loft, Mark!!

Anna

Could be 2 interesting projects here. i.e.

1. Photographs of people who served with Nelson. I say people because there is a photograph in existence of Nancy Perriam who was at the Battle of the Nile.

2. Nelson's servants - in either his private or professional life. Regarding the latter it would be interesting if somebody could go back to the musters and document the "Admiral's retinue" on Nelson's ships.

I have that for H.M.S. Amazon in 1801 when Tom Allen was part of the Admiral's retinue.

Unfortunately I don't have time to do either of these projects justice at the moment.

But I am 99% sure that neither have been covered in the Nelson Dispatch.

MB

Most of the figures in Benjamin West's painting of the Death of Nelson represent real people.

I have seen 2 different keys to the picture which have various names on them.

I just realised that one of them has Robert Drummond's name on it.

In the picture below - if you look at the group of men in the distance behind Nelson (under the poop) Robert Drummond is apparently one of them.

The way the group is described is as follows:

Lieutenant Ram, killed; Mr. Westhall, Midshipmen; Mr Lyons, Midshipman; Robert Drummond, Servant to Capt. Hardy; Thomas Bartlett, Capt. Hardy's Steward; J. Saunders, Powder-boy.



So it seems that Drummond may have worked for both Hardy and Nelson.

There is also a note here that infers that all the (living!) people portrayed in the picture actually attended at West's studio so that he could capture a true likeness. I wonder if that is correct?

MB

Drummond served under Hardy both before and after his time in the Victory: in the Amphion from June 1802 to July 1803, and afterwards in the Triumph. He then served as steward to Rear Admiral Harvey in the St George from 1808 to 1809. Earlier he had been steward to Captain Wood of the Concorde.

In April 1808, Hardy wrote him a certificate saying: "These are to certify whom it may concern that Robert Drummond has served as my Servant more than Six Years and as Steward these last Twelve Months and I beg to recommend him as a most faithful Clean attentive good Servant". I wonder if maybe he was Hardy's servant and his entry as part of the Admiral's revenue was just a book entry to sort out the number of servants between Hardy & Nelson. Or perhaps Hardy lent him to Nelson for those couple of years.

It looks as though he entered Greenwich Hospital in 1851 after his wife died, and died there on 15 June 1868. He had 9 children and at the 1851 census, was living with his wife, daughter and granddaughter.

As ever an element of confusion.

I note that Thomas Bartlett who is described as "Capt. Hardy's Steward" is also included in Nelson's retinue.

When I get my time machine trip back to the deck of Victory I'll get these guys to compile a full job description and report back!!

MB

What a fantastic find Mark! I do hope there's more to be uncovered on Robert Drummond and his life.

I can't see a contemporary source for this, but there's a mention of Drummond amongst Nelson's last retinue here:



Anna, I think you're referring to Dame Francis. Mr. and Mrs. Francis are recorded ferrying the parrots about (probably between Clarges Street and Merton). I'd love to know who had the job of mucking-out the civet cat amongst the Merton menagerie!

Dame Francis was with Emma at Temple Place in 1813 and followed her to Calais in 1814. She was also employed by the Goldsmids at Merton, although I don't know if that was before of after Emma's death.

I've been compiling a list of the Hamilton/Nelson servants for some time - along with any biographical details, references and anecdotes available. The list is a little raggedy and haphazard, but there are some lovely anecdotes and it would be wonderful to have the time to tidy it and try to bring them to life one day. They're a vibrant bunch on the whole.

A quick tot up for now, and the main households (at any one time) contain the following numbers of known servants:

Naples - 16
Piccadilly - 8
Merton/Clarges Street at least 11

Emma had an average personal retinue of around 5-6, including a cook and a coachman separate from Sir William.
She supposedly reduced her household to 2 in 1804, reducing it to 2 (again) in 1808 following the loss of Merton.

If anyone is interested I recently conducted an experiment to see if you can scan these stereoscopic photos and still get the 3D effect.

I am pleased to say that it works perfectly.

You just have to do the scan at 300 dpi so that it prints at the same size and quality as the original.

So we just have to find one original and we can all have a copy.

You can buy brand new viewers for less than £20. This is thanks mainly to Brian May - guitarist with the group Queen - who has recently published a book of stereoscopic photos.

MB

P.S. In case anyone is confused those thumbnails are just one half of the full photo. The full photo that you put in the viewer looks more like this:

Tom Bartlett was Hardy's servant and was 'taken over' by Nelson. Bartlett came from Dorset and seems to have been the son of Edward Bartlett, a doctor and a Hardy family friend. Hardy mentions him in letters to his brother-in-law Manfield, but often seems to refer to Tom as 'the young doctor' rather than by name. He was with Hardy after Copenhagen and also in the Amphion. From the Victory off Toulon in 1803, Hardy wrote: 'The young doctor is doing very well and I think very much improved ; at present he is Lord Nelson's servant who is very fond of him, but I believe his attachment to his old master is such that he only considers himself as lent to his lordship'.

By the way, The Victory's muster shows that Drummond and Bartlett were discharged to the Chatham yacht on 22 Dec 1805 to accompany Nelson's body to Greenwich along with others of Nelson's retinue (including Chevallier, Dear, and Spedillo).

Fantastic info Tony.

What is the source please?

MB

The source for Hardy's letters is 'The Three Dorset Captains at Trafalgar' (1906) by A M Broadley and R G Bartelot. (available on archive.org, I think)

Victory Muster info is from the National Archives Trafalgar Ancestors database

Not used for my last post, but Roger Knight's 'The Pursuit of Victory' is also a good source of info on Nelson's retinue in various ships - in the 'Ships' secction at the back of the book.

Thanks Tony

It's great when we can share our knowledge and resources like this.

I love all these little personal details.

To repeat my mantra:

"To really know the big story - you have to know all the little stories."

MB