Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Tony,

Thanks for that. So now we know the names of some of them, but there are still a few not named – and I am sure Anna would like to if know if Captain Sutton is there too.

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Yes, indeed!

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Devenish wrote:
but there are still a few not named
Umm... The artist wasn't there - I dare he would have liked to know who the others were as well! Do those named look anything like their other portraits? Riou does.

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:59 pm 
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There has been some discussion in the letters columns of The Times in recent days regarding the custom of officers to remain seated aboard ship for the Loyal Toast. An image of Davidson's 'Copenhagen' picture, with all officers on their feet, was used to query this point.

A correspondent from the Dartmouth Museum writes that it is, nevertheless, the custom to be upstanding for toasts other than the Loyal Toast. Presumably, Davidson is commemorating such a toast. He also adds that the representation of the ship is clearly not accurate: 'Unless of extraordinary construction, Elephant would have had the deckhead a foot or more lower than shown. Such is artistic licence.'

Incidentally, it has recently been announced that traditional toasts in the Royal Navy are to be modified to reflect the presence of women on sea going duties.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/region ... -1-5215079

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:27 pm 
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I think I might be ill. So moving from a toast that adds humor to something slightly syruppy that has no chance of doing the same.

Not so bad as the recent news that people can sue the armed forces for 'negligence'. All those families smugly imaging themselves being able to prevent death and injury when in reality they have potentially the blood of hundreds or even thousands now on their hands.

You can see it now - arctic convoys in World War 2. - no aircraft cover and out of date escorts so the risk is too high so no convoys to help the Russians or the infantry who were going to parachute in before d-day not going because they could not carry adequate anti-tank weapons.....

I think a partial problem (which has repeated after every major war historically) is that people forget especially as the war in question moves out of living memory and do not realize that the chances of another war of the same scale is very very high. So in the meantime they lower spending on the armed forces, start introducing stupid restrictions and then it takes thousands of lives before we re-arm and are able to fight efficiently again.

The reason those men died too friendly fire in Iraq was because we were fighting with the Americans who are out of our control and the reason those men died in lightly armoured land rovers was that as a nation we have refused to put enough money into the army to get better armoured vehicles and what money is there is often better spent on training or weaponry. Therefore the fundamental reason they died was the British Electorate and instead of putting handcuffs on the military they should instead get to sue the british people.

Gosh I AM in a bad mood today....


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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Matrim,

Bad mood or not, I tend to agree with you.

Referring to the toasts, I suppose it was inevitable that they would alter some of them, although of course it does remove the humour which is perhaps to be regretted.

As to the other, well I suppose you get what you pay for, or vote for in this case. Ok times are tough financially, but some of the decisions that have been taken by the British government as regards the armed forces appear to be highly suspect to say the least, the supply of inadequate equipment being one of them. Surely, to also pare to the bone the numbers in the forces is also somewhat dubious, in light of world events. Do they somehow think that putting them out into civvy street, now that they are scaling down in Iraq and Afganistan (and where there are no jobs) is the answer? What about other conflicts that might be, and are brewing? Who is going to oppose those? There is also the problem that the soldiers themselves cause on the streets, when they compare it to what they have supposedly been fighting and suffering for abroad. Then there is the scrapping of the carriers, before the two new ones are ready, and the RAF leaving the UK without adequate air cover – ludicrous.

It's not only the UK. Over here in Sweden, they have officially come to the conclusion that the country could not defend itself if attacked by Russia, and there have been a few overflights by Russian fighters into Swedish airspace recently, when no Swedish fighters were scrambled. Sweden has always been wary of Russia and with good reason. However, what is their answer? 'Oh, if it comes to it, NATO and Europe will come to our aid!' My answer is, 'Why should they? The are not duty bound to – Sweden is not a member of NATO, and like the UK, holds the European Union at arms length.

I don't think people think about war much if at all, except as in film, and I think therein lies part of the problem. War is no longer considered a possibility in Europe at least, is a distant memory for many (even the Falklands is now thirty years ago), and children only read about it (perhaps) in history books, or see it in films. It's not personal, although god forbid it should be.

Anyway, perhaps enough about that – except to say that Nelson is probably revolving in his tomb!

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:28 am 
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I am not surprised Sweden is facing the same sort of issues. Britain also still has a global power complex. I do not mind its politicians deciding they can stick there oar into other countries affairs (which our politicians love to do) but think they should pay for an armed force strong enough to do so. The country should either decide it wants to be a military power and spend the money or decide it cannot afford it - in which case spend a lot less and move more to the current German model of minimal interference elsewhere. This middle ground of trying to reduce the forces while at the same time fighting is nonsensical.

The carriers was a strange decision as well but politics and corruption reared their heads. The key problem is that if the carriers had been retro-fitted with catapults the navy could have used US Hornets, which are cheap and plentiful. The problem here is that once they start using them the need to spend millions on the BAE super stealth maintained jets drops drastically so BAE when asked how much it would cost to fit them quoted a ridiculously high price even though the US government said if it cost more than their quote THEY would foot the cost.

Here is a link to a fascinating article covering these points by an ex-british naval officer

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/10/f35_u_turn_idiocy/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_committee_carrier_badness/

Nelson would have some understanding of all this waste of money as well..


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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Matrim,

Thanks for those very interesting articles. They explained a lot, made a great deal of sense – and illustrate how an great opportunity was missed, again, namely the failure to include catapults on the carriers. Why is it that politicians never seem to listen to those actually doing the job, whether it be in defence or anything else, but think they have all the answers?

Or, as the articles suggest, are there other things at play here? If so, it's surely a dangerous game to play with the country's defence capability.

As for Sweden, it is on record, that the head of the armed forces has said that if the country were attacked, he thought the country could hold out for about a week.

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:44 am 
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Hi,

Just made a mental link - Kester are you also 'Stockholm Tar' on MSW?

Perhaps not and probably a coincidence.


Joss


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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Hi Joss,

Indeed I am! I had actually been wondering the same about the 'Matrim' on MSW, and was going to enquire, but never got around to it.

Just another interest we have in common then, although my model build has slowed somewhat of late. :cry: My Sherbourne is on hold until we return to Stockholm from our cottage, in the autumn, but I hope to be posting a few pictures of the stage she is now at – I have just finished the shrouds off.

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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:23 pm 
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I cannot say my Amphion plans are progressing that quickly either. Thankfully my extension is moving to the final few months and allowing I have any money left I should be able to start cutting wood again and re-start my historical investigations into the Amphion and its crew. I have all the logs from Bennett to Sutton currently sitting on a hard drive ready to be number crunched.

So much to do and often so little time :D Still it is a good problem to have.

Joss.


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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:07 am 
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It would seem there's much to keep you going there. Let's hope you can get back to Amphion soon. :wink:

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 Post subject: "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" - Historical Accuracy? - Part 1
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:01 pm 
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I have always found the painting to be very intriguing. However, such a spirited dinner while the ship was anchored within range of active Enemy guns; prior to Hardy’s covert intelligence gathering operation; just moments before Nelson’s final planning session with Riou and Foley; and about 12 hours before the start of the battle has caused me, a former naval officer, to wonder about the historical accuracy as depicted in Davidson’s painting. In addition, the aft cabin (not the "Ward Room") in the painting appears to not have been readied for quarters (i.e. a midshipman lounging against a starboard gun not readied for action; aft windows not covered and secured; furnishings not removed and stored below decks to minimize splinter injuries, etc ...).

Let me first apologize for the length of my review of the historical documents. I had hoped to be brief; however for almost every stone that I turned over, I found another shiny stone to look under...
I have thus organized the summary of my review of a sampling of the historical references into 3 chronological groupings, which will be posted separately. Here is the first.

WD

-------

Part 1: (1801 – 1813) – Historical Accuracy?
1801 - Stewart
In Lt. Col. William Stewart’s 1801 “Journal of Baltic Expedition” (included in Lt. General Stewart’s “Cumloden Papers” which was published in 1871, some forty-four years after his death), he includes some details of two evenings on board HMS Elephant prior to the Battle of Copenhagen:
Quote:
“April 1.
... and the wind being northerly, and favorable for the plan which Lord Nelson had in view, (and which was in conformance with a council of opinion held after dinner on board the Elephant by Sir Hyde Parker, Lord Nelson, Captains Domet, Foley Freemantle, Riou, Rear-Admiral Graves and Captain Murray, on the preceding evening [31 March], he resolved to lose no time, ...
Notwithstanding the southernmost ships of the enemy’s line extended nearly within gunshot of those of our fleet who came to anchor in this new roadstead, no shot was fired by them, nor any molestation offered during this night, except for the throwing of two shells, which, falling within our ships, caused us some alarm, ... Our guard-boats rowed this night up to the enemy’s fleet almost, and found them all alert and at quarters.
As soon as the fleet was at anchor, Lord Nelson had a consultation with a number of pilots and officers; and having digested his plan of operations most admirably in his own mind, proceeded with the assistance of Captains Riou and Foley, to draw up the following general orders ... should the wind be fair, and such as would carry the ships, if crippled off shore.”
As pointed out in <Ned’s 2 Sep 2010 posting>, Stewart does not mention a spirited dinner on the evening before the battle. However, his personal Journal does mention a dinner on the preceding evening (31 March) “on board the Elephant” prior to the “council of opinion”.

Nelson’s operational requirement that “the wind be fair” was satisfied:
Quote:
“April 2.
... The wind at 9 A.M. was south and by east, and the signal for preparing to weigh was made. ...”
The “south and by east” wind provided Nelson’s fleet with a “leading wind” for quickly sailing up channel into the battle; assisted the anchored British ships to maintain fore-aft positioning and the aim of larboard guns during the battle; cleared smoke screens from the targets; and this SbE “fair wind” would carry any of his ships, if crippled, out of the line of fire. (Could this be a prime example of the Nelson touch?)

1806 - Harrison
In James Harrison’s 1806 “The Life of the Right Honourable Horatio Lord Nelson ...” he includes material attributed to “an ingenious eye witness ... Mr. Fergusson, surgeon of the Elephant”. Fergusson’s narrative does not mention a spirited dinner:
Quote:
“... As our anchor dropped, at eight in the evening [1 April], Lord Nelson emphatically called out, that he would fight them the moment that he had a fair wind, ... He had spent the whole night in consultation. ... Captain Hardy, as soon as it became dark, had ventured along the enemy’s line, in the smallest sized boat ...”
One would need access to the ship’s log to be certain; however sunset probably occurred shortly before the 8:00 pm anchoring. With Hardy venturing off on his covert operation “as soon as it became dark”, he likely would not have attended the spirited dinner.

1808? - Narrative
The undated “Narrative of Events Connected with the Conduct of Lord Nelson in the Baltic, 1801” was written by an unnamed officer. The Narrative includes the phrase “ ... Captain Hardy (now Sir Masterman)” which would help to date its writing to sometime between Hardy becoming a baronet (1806) and his being promoted to commodore (1819). My guess is about 1808.

The full Narrative was first published about 75 years later in "The dispatches and letters of Vice Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson with notes by Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas". In this 1884 book, Nicolas postulates that the writer of the Narrative is Stewart. Nicolas may have been wrong in attributing the anonymous Narrative to Stewart:
    The Narrative preamble, written in the “first-person” mode, is obviously intended to imply that the author is Stewart. However, later in the Narrative; the writer refers to Stewart in the “third-person” mode; and

    From a review of Stewart’s 1801 “Journal of the Baltic Expedition” and the circa 1808 “Narrative of Events ...”, it can be concluded that the writer of the Narrative did not have access to Stewart’s personal Journal. The writers’ composition styles are different in each document and there is not a single instance of the use of same sentence or phase being used to refer to an event occurring on the 31st of March or 1st and 2nd of April 1801.
The Narrative included in Nicolas’ 1884 book does have some details of a spirited dinner. Further comments related to this Narrative and the dinner are provided at the 1838-Foster & Hextall, and 1884-Nicolas entries below.

1810 – Clarke & M’Arthur
In Clarke and M’Arthur’s 1810 “Life of Admiral Lord Nelson”, they attribute much of the historical record to “a valuable Memoir which an Officer who was with Lord Nelson ... and from the interesting Memoranda of another eye-witness, Mr. Ferguson, a military surgeon who attended on Colonel Stewart”:
Quote:
“On the first of April ... As our own anchor dropped at eight in the evening, Nelson emphatically called out, I will fight them the moment that I have a fair wind. He spent the whole night in consultation.
With the returning light, the wind had been as becoming perfectly fair, and at half past nine the signal was given to weigh in succession. ...”
Clarke and M’Arthur’s 1810 book does not include any mention of a spirited dinner on the evening before the battle.

1813 - Southey
Robert Southey (Poet Laureate of England) in his 1813 “Life of Nelson” included a narrative (... perhaps, with some poetic license?) in which the legend of the spirited dinner is starting to take form:
Quote:
“the whole division ... anchored there off Draco Point, just as the darkness closed ... The signal to prepare for action was made early in the evening [1 April]; and as his own anchor dropped, Nelson called out, “I will fight them the moment I have a fair wind”. ... Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his officers; he was, as he was ever wont to be when on the eve of action, in high spirits, and drank to a leading wind, and to the success of the morrow. After supper they returned to their respective ships, except Riou, who remained to arrange the order of battle with Nelson and Foley, and to draw up instructions. Hardy, meantime, went in a small boat to examine the channel between them and the enemy ...”
Southey does not provide any attribution for his historical details. His reference to Nelson drinking “to a leading wind” (a good sailing wind abeam or on the quarter) is not completely consistent with Nelson’s requirement for a “fair wind” during the bombardment action as recorded in Stewart’s 1801 journal. Southey’s inclusion of a toast “to a leading wind” may be an example of some poetic license. This toast is a rough nautical equivalent of the well known toast “May the wind be always at your back” from an Irish poem.

End of part 1


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 Post subject: Re: Info on the "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" by Thomas Davidson
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:43 am 
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Many thanks indeed, Starshell, for that interesting and informative post. We look forward to more!

I've sent a PM to Ned, who started this thread, in case he hasn't looked in recently. I'm sure he'll find your observations of great interest.

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 Post subject: "Ward Room of HMS Elephant" - Historical Accuracy? - Part 2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:24 pm 
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Below is my second set of observations.

WD

------

Part 2: (1838 – 1901) - Historical Accuracy?

1838 – Foster & Hextall
The “The Life of Horatio Lord Viscount Nelson, Baron of the Nile, Duke of Bronte, etc.” by an unnamed author (published by Foster and Hextall in 1838), provides some details which are attributed to a “memoir of an [unnamed] officer, which was given to Mr. Clarke [& M’Arthur], and which he has inserted in his Life of Nelson”.
Quote:
“On board the Elephant, the night of the 1st of April .... As soon as the fleet was at anchor, the gallant Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his comrades in arms. He was in the highest spirits, and drank to a leading wind and to the success of the ensuing day. Captain, Foley, Hardy, Freemantle, Riou, Inman; his lordship’s second in command, Admiral Greaves, and a few others to whom he was particularly attached, were of this interesting party; from which every man separated with feelings of admiration for their great leader, and with an anxious impatience to follow him to the approaching battle. The signal to prepare for action had been made early in the evening. All captains retired to their respective ships, Riou excepted, who, with Lord Nelson and Foley, arranged the order of battle, and those instructions ... These three officers retired between nine and ten to the after cabin, and drew up these orders ...”
A comparison of phrases used above and in Nicolas’ 1884 book; confirms that the unnamed author, of the 1838 book, did have access to (... or perhaps even had written?) the anonymous memoir (see 1808?-Narrative entry) later included in Nicolas’ book.
Clarke & M’Arthur did not insert the circa 1808 memoir into their 1810 “Life of Nelson”. The unnamed officer, who is asserted to have provided the narrative to Clarke and M’Arthur, was later postulated to be Stewart in Nicolas’ 1884 book.

With the anchoring at eight and the orders being prepared between nine and ten, the duration of the dinner on the evening before the battle would have, by necessity, been very brief. This 1838 book is perhaps the first to list the officers (including Hardy) who “sat down to table” with Nelson. As discussed in the 1806-Harrison entry, it is unlikely that Hardy attended this brief dinner.

The author’s use of phrases such as "a large party of his comrades in arms" and “of this interesting party” is somewhat ambiguous in that some readers (and historical authors) over the years have interpreted the meaning differently. The Oxford Dictionary includes many definitions for “party”, of which two could be inferred in this 1838 book: “a social gathering of invited guests, typically involving eating, drinking, and entertainment” or “a group of people taking part in a particular activity or trip”. The second is my interpretation.

1873 – Grant
In James Grant’s 1873 “British Battles on Land and Sea”, he includes a narrative largely extracted from and attributed to Robert Southey’s 1813 book.
Quote:
“The whole division .... came to anchor off Draco Point, just as the last rays of the sun faded ...
“I shall fight them the moment I have a fair wind,” exclaimed Nelson, as his own anchor was let go.
... a few shells ... fell harmlessly among our ships, which were crowded in an anchoring-ground ... ..., says Southey, "... Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his officers; he was, as he was ever wont to be when on the eve of action, in high spirits, and drank to a leading wind, and to the success of to-morrow.'
After supper they returned to their respective ships, except Riou, who remained to arrange the order of battle with Nelson and Captain Foley, and to draw up instructions. Hardy, meantime, went in a small boat to examine the channel between them and the Enemy ...”
Grant's use of Southey’s phase "large party of his officers" is ambiguous and open to interpretation as discussed in the 1838-Foster & Hextall entry.

1884 - Nicolas
In "The dispatches and letters of Vice Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson with notes by Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas", Nicolas includes the full 6 page “memoir of an officer” entitled “Narrative of Events Connected with the Conduct of Lord Nelson in the Baltic, 1801”. Nicolas states that this narrative was prepared by Stewart for Clarke and M’Arthur, but not included in their 1810 book:
Quote:
About dark, the whole fleet was at its anchorage off Draco point; the headmost of the Enemy’s line not more than two miles distant. The small extent of the Anchoring-ground, as the fleet did not consist of less than thirty-three Pendants, cause the Ships to be so much crowded, which the calmness of the evening increased, that had the Enemy but taken due advantage of it by shells from Mortar-boats or from Amak Island, the greatest mischief might have ensued. They threw two or three about eight P.M., which served to show that we were within range ... Our Guard-boats were actively employed between us and the Enemy, and Captain Hardy even rowed to their leading ship; sounding around her ...
On board the Elephant, the night of the 1st of April ... As soon as the Fleet was at anchor, the gallant Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his comrades in arms. He was in the highest spirits, and drank to a leading wind, and to the success of the ensuing day. Captains Foley, Hardy, Fremantle, Riou, Inman, his Lordship's Second in Command, Admiral Graves, and a few others to whom he was particular attached, were of this interesting party; from which every man separated with feelings of admiration for their great leader, and with anxious impatience to follow him to the approaching Battle. ...”
Nicolas was correct in stating the narrative was not included in Clarke and M’Arthur’s book, however he may have been incorrect in his postulation that is was prepared by Stewart. See above 1808?–Narrative entry.

1897 - Mahan
From 1893 until 1895, Captain Alfred Thayer Mahan, was in command of the USS Chicago, flagship of the USN European Station. He was already famous as a naval strategist and historian (including his writing of papers on Nelson). In May and June of 1894 his ship visited Gravesend on the Thames. Mahan was feted in London society and he received honorary degrees from Oxford and Cambridge.
Thomas Davidson would have been aware of the Mahan’s works and they may have even met at one of the social or academic events during Mahan’s 1894 visit.
In Mahan’s 1897 “The Life of Nelson, The Embodiment of the Sea Power of Great Britain”, he includes the following historical details of the evening before the Battle of Copenhagen:
Quote:
"On board the Elephant," writes Stewart, who with his soldiers had followed Nelson from the "St. George," "the night of the 1st of April was an important one. As soon as the fleet was at anchor, the gallant Nelson sat down to table with a large party of his comrades in arms. He was in the highest spirits, and drank to a leading wind and to the success of the ensuing day. Captains Foley, Hardy, Freemantle, Riou, Inman, Admiral Graves, his Lordship's second in command, and a few others to whom he was particularly attached, were of this interesting party; from which every man separated with feelings of admiration for their great leader, and with anxious impatience to follow him to the approaching battle.”
With the exception of the specific attribution of the narrative to Stewart; Mahan’s historical description of the dinner is identical to that written by Nicolas (1884). Mahan also implicitly accepts Nicolas’ postulation that the circa 1808 “Narrative of Events ...” was written by Stewart.

1898 – Royal Academy
The Evening before the Battle of Copenhagen” was exhibited by Thomas Davidson in 1898 at the Royal Academy, London. “The Royal Academy of Arts, A Complete Dictionary of Contributors and their work from its foundation in 1769 to 1904”, by Algernon Graves, records that this exhibition included the following details with attribution to Alfred Thayer Mahan:
Quote:
“The evening before the Battle of Copenhagen, Nelson sat down to table with Admiral Graves, second in command and Captains Foley, Hardy, Fremantle, Riou, Inman, Col Stewart and a few others; Nelson drank to the success of the ensuing day. -- Mahan
It is interesting to note that in the historical details for his painting, Davidson included Stewart at the dinner and removed the reference to Nelson toasting a “leading wind”.
Davidson’s decision in attributing the historical narrative to Mahan’s popular 1897 book may have been to quote a respected source for the historical accuracy of his painting, where some historians may have raised questions. Another possibility is that it was just a good business decision related to the as yet unsold and unpublished painting. (Engravings of Davidson’s “Nelson’s Last Signal at Trafalgar” had been recently published by Arthur Lucas of New Bond Street.)

1901? – Fairbairn
A print of the painting was published with a credit indicating that the “original was in the possession of Sir Arthur H. Fairbairn, Bt”. My guess is that this print was probably published in about 1901 to coincide with the centenary of the Battle of Copenhagen. The sales of this print would have introduced the general public to Davidson’s interpretation of the historical details.
Davidson (1842-1919) and Fairbairn (1852–1915) were contemporaries and both were deaf mutes and active supporters of the Royal Association for the Deaf in the 1890s. Lord Fairbairn’s acquisition of the original painting from Davidson may have been motivated by a possible family connection to the Battle of Copenhagen. A Lieutenant named Jonathan Fairbairn served on HMS London during the battle.

End of Part 2


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