Nelson & His World

Let's see if I can possibly "save the day" here!!

(Assuming that we are dealing solely with the issues of "masts" and "answering signals").

I have here 3 facsimile books as follows:

1. Sailing and Fighting Instructions for His Majesty's Fleet - 1775

2. Signals and Instructions IN ADDITION to the Sailing and Fighting Instructions - 1779

3. Lord Howe's Signals and Instructions (North American Station) - 1776

Number 1 has a list of 20 (honestly) display points for flags

Number 3 - slightly simplified - has just 12. Here they are called "hoist points". So pretty straightforward so far - just leaving us to determine if Popham signals could be displayed in multiple positions. I have it in my head that it is just the mizzen mast but can't justify that. Hopefully a definitive answer is out there somewhere.

As regards any written instructions regarding the answering of signals. I will work through these 3 volumes as diligently as possible and see if I can spot anything.

BUT there is more help at hand. During the 20th century the Navy Records Society published an interesting range of books - many now out of print/quite pricey. Having said that you can view and search their publication - "Signals and Instructions 1776-1794" - online.

http://www.archive.org/stream/signalsandinstr00socigoog

I tried a quick search on "answering" and it brought up several results - although for the sake of time I didn't look at them in detail.

Tony - do you fancy having a delve in there.

If neither of us comes up trumps with these various resources I truly wouldn't know where to turn next.

MB

Tony

AARGH - I see now that your question regarding "answering" was actually specific to "Telegraphic Signals" - so you may not want to deal with all this earlier stuff.

But having said that I CAN confirm that pre-Popham there was no one answer.

i.e. I am looking down a list of signals here and some have no instructions regarding answering (therefore I assume no answer required) - some require an answer only from the other flag ships - and some require an answer/response from all ships i.e. flag and private.

Just taking one virtually at random we get:



That's a Night Signal obviously.

I think our only hope to answer your issues regarding the Telegraphic signals (masts and answering) might be to get somebody down to Greenwich to look at one of the original code books.

That's my thoughts for now. I think it puts us a fraction closer to a conclusive answer??!!

MB

Tony

Info here seems to come direct from an original Telegraphic code book.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14245050/Admi ... -Book-1806

My interpretation is that an affirmation is expected after each signal (as opposed to hoist) i.e. after the "finish" flag has been raised.

But don't like the comment: "If the message was to be answered a further flag was flown". WHAT FLAG??!!

My brain starting to hurt here - so all from me for tonight!!

MB

Hi all - just back in, so thanks for the great input, which I haven't yet had a chance to read properly.

I was actually interested in the answering of both types of signal - whether each hoist was answered for telegraphic signals, but even more interested in whether someone always did check that numerical signals to the whole fleet were answered by all. The speed and frequency of some of the signals before Trafalgar make me think that not even a repeating frigate was checking they were answered by all ships.

Thanks, Brian, PhiloN, and Mark, for all the good information in the last few replies.

The 1806 Telegraph Signal Book seems a bit lacking in detail in the instructions, so I don’t know that it necessarily precludes the acknowledging of each hoist, as described by PhiloN as later practice. I suppose general telegraph signals to the whole fleet were not often made, as they would usually be used for communicating specific information to and from the commander.

I’m sure you are right, Brian, that there won’t be a definitive answer to some of this. As I understand it, until 1799 at least, instructions on signals were issued by the commander in chief. Although there may be much about how signals should be answered, understandably there is less about how the commander (or his signal officer) should check they are answered. The other problem is that Howe was never one to express himself clearly! However, for the answering of general signals, "Signals and Instructions 1776-1794" (thanks, Mark) provides one snippet that more or less provides a clue. Howe’s explanatory instructions (1793) includes the following:

There is also much on ships returning closer if they cannot make out signals, and I get the impression that it is much more the responsibility of other ships to ensure they have understood signals than the responsibility of the commander to check. But I was as much interested in how it worked in practice as how it was supposed to work!

One other aspect that I do need to read is 'The Instructions Respecting the Order of Sailing' in the 1799 Admiralty Signal Book. I don't think there is any transcription of this online anywhere, but does anyone know different?

Tony’s original query was about the Trafalgar telegraph flags but the subsequent discussion opened up many issues relating to signals generally – notably where they were flown, how acknowledged, and how the Lord Howe ‘numerical’ system evolved into the Popham ‘vocabulary word’ system, and how they coexisted in the early 1800s.

Taking Mark B’s hint, I have been to the NMM. At the cost of boring some, and risking raking over dead ashes, this is what I found. I should explain that to get manuscripts in the NMM these days, you have to book an appointment and take pot luck in advance from the catalogue. There was nothing in the section on signals which offered an obvious line of enquiry, so I picked on Notes about Signals made by the historian Julian Corbett (which did not answer the questions), a card of signal flags, pendants etc from the Blockade of Brest after 1800; and the Admiralty ‘Signal Book for Ships of War’ of 1808. The last is the significant document.

Contents.
The Book is half an inch thick, measures some 8 inches by 6 and heavily indexed down the side. It is issued to ‘the respective captains and commanders of HM Ships’ and begins ‘You are hereby required and directed to pay strict obedience to the following instructions, and signals when made to you by a superior officer…’ There then follows:
1.Two lists of the signal numbers in alphabetical order of subject from ‘action’ to ‘yards, get up topgallant…’ (one list for admirals, the other by private ships) plus Instructions.
2. Special sections, with coloured illustrations, on Triangular Flags (used by flagships alone to address particular squadrons or divisions or attached non-line ships like transports and frigates); Pendants (long and narrow with 9 specific meanings) and the signalling use of the Union Flag; Distant Signals (shapes using combinations of square flags, pendants and balls); Compass Signals (combinations of square flags and pendants); and Fog Signals (using horns, drums, bells etc)
3. A section on Single (square) Flags used to i. denote the numbers in the code book 1-0 plus 2 substitutes; or ii. indicate directions, telegraph, rendezvous, chase and basic messages.
(The nature and colours of all the flags and pendants above are the same as used at the Blockade of Brest and - with a few exceptions - in Howe's 1790 Signal Book)
4. Two lists of the signals in numerical order - one list (nos 11-317) for admirals; the other (nos 361-467) used by private ships - with Instructions.
5. Detailed Instructions (totalling 52, with diagrams and references to relevant signal numbers) on Order of Sailing; The Line of Battle; Forming the Line of Battle; and Preparations to Engaging. This comprises over half the book.

Observations.
6.The book is clearly the latest development of the Howe idea using numbers to refer to meanings pre-set in the signal book. It is impossible to convey anything else. Therte are no vocabulary words - no 'England; no 'Expects' no 'Man' (except overboard')

7. The ‘telegraph’ flag in para 3 above implies that a supplementary signaling system is in use. But there is no mention whatever of it, or reference to such a thing in the Book even as an option available to admirals.

8. Only a few signals are combined with a set position. Eg a Union Flag plus ship's number flown from the mizzentopmast means ‘captain to come on board’; from the mizzentop shrouds, it means ‘lieutenant to come on board’. Likwise, the only signal number which gives any indication as to its position is no 27 ‘Break the enemy’s line’. When flown from the fore top mast it means ‘through the van’; from the main top mast ‘through the centre’; and from the mizzen ‘through the rear.’ Likewise Instruction II in para 1 above says
‘II. The signals generally used to distinguish ships from each other, will be pendants shewn at different mastheads, or yard arms as shall be appointed by the admiral'

9 With these few exception, nothing is said about where the signals, numerical or otherwise, are to be flown. A cue however is on section 3 above. This section alone has, against each pendant, two columns, one for ‘signification’ ie meaning, the other for ‘position’. This is invariably ‘Where most easily seen.’

10.There is nothing specific on checking that messages are acknowledged. Only general indications like
‘I The signals are to be complied with by all the ships of the fleet, unless they are specifically addressed to particular ships or squadrons…

IV. All ships to which signals are addressed are to hoist the answering pendant as soon as they see and understand (in italics) them, which is to be kept flying until the admirals’ signal is taken in

VII When the signals made from the admiral are not speedily answered by the ship to which they are addressed, any ships from which they are likely to be seen are to repeat them, shewing at the same time the ship’s pendant to which they are addressed.’ And

‘Proper persons are to be appointed to every ship to keep lookout on the admiral’s ship that his motions may be followed and his signals obeyed as expeditiously as possible.

I am not sure this gets us much further forward.

Brian

Thank you, Brian, for sharing the result of what was obviously many hours work. My original questions were not supposed to be restricted to telegraphic signals, and I am very grateful for all the input in this thread. I certainly know a great deal more about signalling now than I did a couple of weeks ago.

It is interesting that in 1808 there were still a few signals whose meaning was dependant on position, but you have provided confirmation that most were to be flown ‘where most easily seen’.

It seems that signals were answered remarkably quickly, but I would assume that, depending on circumstances, the admiral (or rather, his signal officer) might not necessarily check that a signal was answered by all ships. He might instead, rely on others to repeat the signal or to alert him if signals were not obeyed. Thus when Nelson made three signals within ten minutes to 26 ships scattered over several miles of sea, I feel there would have been no formal check that absolutely all had replied.

You have also confirmed the form of Distant Signals that Anna asked about in the other thread.

Here is a little bit more on Telegraph signals, which in particular mentions the option of splitting a single hoist across more than one location, and provides some detail on answering telegraph signals. It is extracted from a letter to The Monthly Magazine [No. 104] August 1, 1803, pp.6-9, and was reproduced in the 1805 Club newsletter, The Kedge Anchor in March this year:

Brilliant stuff Tony! That's the value of a site like this - so many different eyes and ears to the ground.

Brian