Nelson & His World

Thank you everybody for being so welcoming!

However, I hate to be pedantic on only my second post but I must point out that the letter quoted by Tycho (Anna) was actually written by Fanny (on 5 April 1798). As Nelson was in St. Helens at this point, the letter would appear to be in response to his of April 3 and, as it is a short letter, I can only think it specifically refers to his line 'I can only, my dear Fanny, repeat, what I hope you know, that you are uppermost in my thoughts.' I agree that, on the face of it, it seems an odd thing for her to be saying - she seems to be hoping that they would stay together although they were married. Divorce was rare at this time, but Fanny mentions a number of 'separations' (her terminology) between naval couples and even a divorce (Captain Peard, Letter of May 15 1798) so perhaps it was more common in the naval communities owing to long periods of separation.

I agree that the Countess Spencer account of the dinner does seem at odds with the snipey letters he sent as he prepared to set sail. (I imagine him in his cabin, setting out, with the help of his servant, all his stockings, towels, stocks etc and counting them off with annoyance!) We should remember also, that Nelson did specially ask Lady Spencer if Fanny could attend the dinner although it was her rule not to invite the wives. I feel that Nelson appreciated very much Fanny's gentility and the fact that he could 'take her anywhere'. When he met Emma he perhaps saw that there was an entirely different way of operating in the upper echelons of society and realised it was not always necessary to be so decorous and genteel.

At the same time as he was becoming close to Emma, Fanny was writing her fretful letters to him from Round Wood. Something I have noticed in reading these is that they are almost entirely devoid of humour - she never makes a joke, there is no trace of irony and even when she is making (the occasional) acid comment -'her tongue well dipped in oil and fashioned early in life by a gay disposition..' - she seems plain bitchy and not in least amusing. What is so terribly sad at this time is the care which she took getting the cottage ready for him - she mentions netting fruit trees so that cherries could be preserved in brandy (these she later sent to him with some jams), there is great deal of talk about his collection of wines, which were to be untouched until he came home and, saddest of all, she says 'I feel very much your kindness in desiring I would indulge myself in everything you can afford. I go on in the same careful way I began.' As we all know, once Merton had been purchased, Emma had no such scruples indulging herself in everything he couldn't afford!

Personally, I think Nelson and Fanny were man and wife for too long for us to debate whether or not they were in love. If I heard of a marriage of more than 10 years today that was foundering I don't think I would say 'he never loved you'.

Thank you for responding so promptly by the way - interesting that we can't find this steamy letter. I wonder if Justin Reay is muddled with the one before they got married - the one about having a bucket of cold sea water chucked over him every day? Even so, this is not steamy like some of those to Emma!

Thanks

Caitli

Many thanks, Caitlin, for dating the letter, and for your interesting comments.

Fanny is a strange creature, I find: clearly a rather timid, spiritless woman, and an apparently dutiful wife yet, when Nelson's liaison with Emma began to flourish, she did not follow the customary pattern of the day and turn a blind eye. Margarette Lincoln's 'Naval wives and mistresses' comments fully on this custom, though that I'm sure you know that marriage was seen as an important foundation of a stable society, but also that extra-marital liaisons were common because many marriages were marriages of convenience, arranged for dynastic and/or financial reasons. There were conventions to be observed: a woman would accept, with varying degrees of grace, her husband's behaviour; a man would stay with his family to preserve the proprieties and make provision for a mistress and any children of the liaison. This much society could tolerate. What was completely beyond the pale was to leave your wife. It was this that scandalised society, even more than Nelson's dalliance with Emma. Nelson took some time to make a final decision about leaving Fanny. I wonder if he returned from Naples fully expecting her to accept the situation and tolerate the relationship with Emma while maintaining the facade of their marriage, as was the common practice of the day? Instead, we know she was distraught and seemed unwilling to settle for the usual course of meek acceptance of the status quo. This quiet determination not to conform in a woman who was extremely conventional in her attitudes and behaviour is interesting and shows another side to her character, I think. Or maybe this is just me speculating - yet again!

And I do think you are right about Fanny's lack of humour. Even more noticeable, I think, is her lack of imaginative sympathy. She never seemed able to enter fully into an understanding of Nelson's driven character, his thirst for glory and his child-like need of approval and praise, or indeed, the tremendous toll that life at sea could take. I'm always amused by her response to Nelson's letter after the terrible Vanguard storm in which he was inches from death and he described the horrendous devastation the ship has suffered.'What a storm', Fanny wrote. 'It blew a storm that night in Ipswich too.' There is something self-referential and self-focused here that suggests to me quite a strong ego despite her apparently compliant nature.

Caitlin,

Thanks for clarifying the date of the original letter and for your further comments.

I surmise that poor Fanny perhaps didn't fully appreciate what it was to be married to a seaman, with its (then) even longer periods of separation and its dangers. I believe it was, and is, something which a naval bride had to 'take on board' and be prepared for. (I am reminded of Celia Johnson's speech on the subject, in Noel Coward's 'In Which We Serve.' Ok, it's the Second World War, but the same probably applied in Nelson's day and probably does even today, although commissions are shorter.)

Yes, Fanny seems to have been perhaps colourless and lacking in humour, but she did have her admirers – one of which I think was the late Colin White.

Caitlin,

Forgive me for asking, but your name sounds American. Are you perhaps from the other side of the 'pond'? Also are you a cricket fan? Apologies if you're not either!

P.s I am sure Anna would say be as pedantic as you like!

Yes, all pedants welcome here. We of the Bramble Bush Tendency (possessors of stray/misremembered bits of information that stick to your brain like sheep's wool on a bramble bush) have need of the more assiduous to guide us to the facts that slip away!

Kester: yes, Colin White made a defence of Fanny in an article available on line.

http://www.jmr.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/nav.1773

Scroll down to 'The Wife's Tale'.

Margarette Lincoln of the National Maritime Museum has written a more critical assessment of Fanny but I can't remember where.

I don't know what to answer first.

No, I'm not American -I live in Cornwall and I am an old Caitlin (at 34!) - most Caitlins nowadays are children and I am forever turning in response to people shouting 'Caitlin' at their kids!

As for Fanny and Emma - I am definitely a Lady Nelson sympathiser. From what I understand of Emma, I don't think anyone could turn a blind eye to her! Perhaps Fanny was unwilling to just ignore the presence of her husband's mistress because her marriage had been a real love match. Also, I feel that Horatia's significance is often underestimated - try to imagine what it would be like to be fathering twins at the age of 42 after many, long, childless years, surrounded by nieces and nephews. The union with Emma must have seemed to have the endorsement of God - indeed, very distastefully, Nelson joined Emma in wishing Fanny dead (so that they could marry) writing in one of his letters that 'God may provide this'. This is what I don't like about Nelson's behaviour at this point.

Yes, Tycho, I agree about that letter about the storm - excessive self-reference and lack of understanding. Having said this, we do not know what Fanny was actually like when not overwhelmed by her nerves - she seems to have been paralysed by her fears for Nelson when he was away and unable to organise the accommodation she was advised to get. When at last able to pin him down to make a decision about this, she found she could manage to get Round Wood ready.

I've got a copy of the Colin White 'A Wife's Tale'. It's really quite sad - and, of course, there is her last letter to him (returned unread) where she adopts a slightly different, more romantic style saying 'let everything [with Emma] be buried in oblivion, it will pass away like a dream.'

It's good to be able to remember all these little facts, but sometimes very difficult trying to remember where to find them again! And all us pedants need documentary evidence to back up our claims about the various characters in Nelson's life.

Caitlin

Sorry - no I'm not a cricket fan - I chose it because my ebay i.d is based around a 10cc song (I was really running out of ideas as even names as ridculous as 'hairylegs' had been taken!) and I sensed a theme developing for these i.ds.

By the way, for evidence of Fanny's gentleness and timidity see her letters from Round Wood about the 'Bolton girls' - Susannah's twins. I haven't got the letters to hand, but she tells Nelson that they are true Boltons - arguementative, stroppy etc. but that she will not be contradicting them in any way and that she hopes this prevent her seeing the worst of their tempers. So she was quite scared of these teenagers!

I agree with you, Caitlin, that there is little evidence of actual marriage problems before Nelson became attached to Emma. There may not have been much passion in the marriage by that stage, but I have the impression that Nelson and Fanny rubbed along OK most of the time. Given that letter writing was an everyday method of communication, it would be surprising if there was not the odd trace of irritation, and taking up a new command must have been just about as stressful as it gets – involving moving ‘house’, a new job, and enforced separation all rolled into one. And he couldn’t pop home the following weekend if anything had been forgotten.

Just to clarify further who wrote what when:


I really don't see much evidence of problems in the above.

Living together at Burnham with his father doesn’t seem to have been a big problem either. Once back at sea in 1793, Nelson wrote to Fanny: ‘I assure you it cannot give you more pleasure than it will me, for us to be settled again at Burnham and I sincerely hope our father will not part with the house to anyone so as to prevent our getting into it again'.

Things seem OK in 1794: ‘If it is His good pleasure nothing can rejoice me so much as being once more by your side when we shall talk over all these stories and laugh at them'.

And: 'I need not I am sure say that all my joy is placed in you, I have none separated from you, you are present, my imagination be where I will. Every action of my life I know you must feel for, all my joys of victory are twofold to me knowing how you must partake of them…'

Of course later in 1794 he became more ambitious for glory, prize money and advancement, and with the enjoyment of Adelaide’s company, a little less effusive towards Fanny.

Fanny’s personality does not come across as attractive, and Emma was a remarkable person who inspired passion in Nelson, but I’m not sure the evidence exists to portray Emma as rescuing Nelson from a broken marriage.

And who here believes Nelson was such a fool as to marry just a complexion?

Certainly not me – and I think we all believe that Nelson thought that there was more to Emma than that.

As for Emma herself, whatever one thinks of her personally, she obviously had another side to her character other than the one most popularly imagined. It was largely through her and, of course Sir William, that Nelson was able to work within the Neapolitan Court to get things done - be it finding extra Neapolitan troops or supplying resources for the British Fleet in Naples. That was obviously what Nelson was referring to, when he wrote to Fanny that Emma was the 'best of her sex', which perhaps was not the most apt of phrases in a letter to his wife.

I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that Emma 'rescued' Nelson from a broken marriage. Perhaps it was partly that Emma provided Nelson with the more exciting 'life style' which went with his character.

Caitlin,

Thanks for the added info. I had always assumed your name to be from 'across the pond' (the influence of American tv) and certainly didn't take into account the peculiarities of present day child naming in the UK!

To find out why Nelson left Fanny for Emma, wind forward to about a quarter of the way through this reel of this 1926 film.

See also:

Reel 1
Reel 2
Reel 3
Reel 4

(Reels 1 & 2 and really worth bothering with!)

Thanks for that film Tony and thanks for putting those letters into context. It can be very difficult when reading them to work out who is responding to what when they often arrived out of sequence or in bundles! That film is amazing - and the point is made very neatly - and to think that when it was made Fanny hadn't even been dead 100 years! I love the drop-waisted empire line dresses - truly bizarre! Does anyone else think that this interesting subject is well-overdue another film? Unfortunately, I think all the battle scenes etc. would make it too expensive and I'm not sure the American market appreciates Nelson like we do!

Caitlin

Caitlin:

We’ve had quite a few discussions on the board about Nelson and Emma films – past and, we hope, to come! Costume drama is one thing the BBC does so well, and it is perfect material – the story’s all there – no need to make anything up! I think they are far more meticulous now about authentic detail than they were in the past. There’s something indefinably 1920s about Emma in the clip Tony posted. (Well, not indefinable really – it’s the hair and the makeup – very ‘twenties’.)

You can see some of our chats on various Nelson films here:


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=676&hilit=film

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=662&hilit=film

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=334&hilit=film

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169&p=881&hilit=film#p881

Yes, I am an Arthur Bryant fan. I brought his The Revoluntary and Napoleonic Wars when I was about 14 brand new in WH Smiths with a Christmas book token. I remmeber it well as in those days my town (Aldershot) had a WH Smith but this only sold newsppers at the rail station and I had to travel to Farnham where they had a large store. I read and re-read the sections on Nelson and the navy. I went on to do O Level History at Farnborough Sixth Form College and one of the questions was what was the British Navy's contributuin to the war? (can't remmeber the actual wording of the question) well, the answer was in this book and as I had read and re-read it many times I used the information from good old Arthur's book and I am sure this helped me get an A grade. Thank you Arthur.

I went on to get the other 2 books in the series from second hand shops. I also have his book on Charles IIbrought new about the same time.

Tina again!

I logged off having posted my reply and then remembered the title of the book 'The Years of Endurance'. I found Arhtur Bryant easy to read and amusing at times.