Nelson & His World

Hello my new question is:
Did the young Nelson ever meet Captain James Cook, if not where they aware of each other?
The oceans were vast 'unknowns' its incredible when one thinks that.

David.

David,

It's a nice thought, the young Nelson meeting the probably the greatest navigator of the age, but I have not heard or read of it. Nelson almost certainly read of Cook's exploits later, as he did those of Dampier, but the young man was largely an unknown at the time of Cook's death, and it is perhaps doubtful that Cook had heard of him.

Cook was Nelson's senior by thirty years, having been born in 1728, and by the time the latter had been commissioned lieutenant into the Lowestoffe in 1777 in American waters, Cook was already on his third and final voyage far away in the Pacific. He was killed by the natives of Hawaii two years later in 1779, coincidentally the same year Nelson was made post captain.

I think the only, rather tenuous, link is through William Bligh, who served with Cook on his third voyage and was later to be one of Nelson's captains at Copenhagen.

Thanks Kester,
I thought it was unlikely, however there must of been times when they were in England on the same day so to speak?
That would need some deep research.
After all they were members of the same club!
Yes Blyth was the tentative link.
Was one of Nelsons early ' jobs' to basically 'police' the Caribbean and Central American coast?
Ward of privateers or make them comply?
I wonder if he ever set foot in Bluefield Nicaragau, a pirate haven in those days (still is).
David

I won't comment on the fanciful notion that Nelson and Cook may have met.
On the second topic however, I think we need a little precision.
1. Nelson’s activities in Spanish ruled Nicaragua took place in time of war (what we call the American War of Independence, though it was a truly global conflict with the French, the Dutch and the Spanish eventually ranged against Britain). They were not therefore concerned with ‘policing’ but were acts of war. The capture of both enemy warships and privateers (that is private ships licensed by hostile governments to wage war against an enemy and subject to strict rules) was an essential element in this.
2. Nelson was (in command) in the Caribbean in time of peace and although his duties could be described as ‘policing’ they were not general law enforcement but focussed on ensuring observance of the Navigation Acts with their stipulations that British goods should be carried in British ships and restricting that trade with foreign countries. Before 1783 the compatible products of the British colonies on America and the Caribbean had led to close (if not symbiotic) trading links which were possible due to their membership of the British Empire. After 1783, the United States became a foreign country, was no longer part of the ‘British’ colonial trade network, and was therefore excluded from the privileges of the Navigation Acts. Alas traders and merchants in both the Caribbean and the USA wanted to carry on (in fact illegally) as before, and were hostile to Nelson’s somewhat legalistic enforcement of the Acts.
3. No doubt Nelson was also available to round up maritime thieves (ie pirates – nothing whatever to do with privateers which did not exist in time of peace) in ‘support of the civil power’ – ie when asked to do so by the colonial authorities.
Brian

Thanks Brian for your detailed answer.
I only loosely used the term 'policing' i realise its not quite the correct maritime word.
However I'm sure the Admiralty in general thought of themselves as the 'cream of the crop', perhaps they were.
Generally they had state of the art equipment.
Can serious historians verify if Nelson ever did in fact meet Captain Cook?
The Dutch and Swedes had Central American interests too i think?
The Chinese will start a 'new' canal from Bluefields this December at a cost of an estimated 50 billion.
David

The whole are was pretty lawless, still is in many ways.
David.

You are right David: both Holland and Sweden had island possessions in the Caribbean and therefore had interests of some sort in (Spanish) Central America. They were however only small players in the area, and in the case of Sweden, an intermittent one.
Brian

The ships under Nelsons command had cooper sheathing and plates; a state of the art development.
Cooper mines in Wales were working at full capacity.
David

A question that interests me is whether Nelson would have been that bothered about meeting Captain Cook? Cook was one of a long list of voyagers such as William Dampier, George Anson, John Byron, Samuel Wallis and Philip Carteret (and not forgetting Francis Drake), many of whom caught the public imagination with stirring tales of adventure. Nelson was part of this too, in the expedition to the Arctic in Carcass under Lutwidge and Phipps. Certainly Nelson must have admired Cook's contribution to navigation, charting and scientific knowledge, but these don't seem to have been Nelson's greatest interests. Did Cook's voyages do much to enhance British trade? And how important was eastern Australia seen to be, other than a convenient colony in which to dump a few convicts? In the 21st century, we seem to remember Cook to the exclusion of all others, much as the cult of Nelson diminishes others.

What you say is true David, but state of the art developments are always copied and the advantages of those who pioneer it soon evaporate. The coppering of British ships began in the 1770s and by 1781 most larger vessels and been coppered or were due to be coppered, although it took another 5 years for the problem of corrosion resulting from contact with iron bolts to be identified and corrected. This of course had given the British a tremendous advantage in the closing years of the American War of Independence: their ships were faster and needed full repairs less frequently. However the French (and presumably others), quickly recognised the advantages of the new technology and began to copy it. Colonies of British workers were actually imported to get the process going and by 1792 ships of the French king were routinely being coppered.
Thus I would therefore be surprised if French ships in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (ie Nelson’s time) were not also state of the art as regards copper and that the previous British advantages in speed still held true. Indeed, French ships in the eyes of envious British naval officers of the time were notoriously seen as being faster than RN vessels –which implies that, as well as differently designed, they were coppered and were not sheathed in barnacles and trailing seaweed as they had done in the 1770s
Brian

David,

I don't think that would have been possible either. It was just over a year after Endeavour returned home that Cook set out again on his second voyage in July 1772. Nelson, coincidentally, returned home from his 'educational' voyage on the Mary Ann under Maurice Suckling's old shipmate John Rathbone, in the same month. It's hardly likely therefore that there would have been any possibility of a meeting, even under Maurice Suckling's guidance, or of Nelson joining either Cook's second voyage, or similarly the third of 1776–9. By that stage Suckling had secured Nelson in his chosen profession, and as Tony mentions, would he have been that interested in any case having already been part of one expedition? He had taken to the fighting side of the RN, rather than the exploratory one!

There would actually appear to have been a much closer connection between Cook and Nelson, than through Bligh. This was none other Mrs Cook, then of course a widow, who apparently was a frequent visitor to Merton where she had a relative living nearby. I'm sure the Nelsons would want to have met her (we can speculate that Emma and Nelson would probably have had different reasons) and during which visits she must have spoken a great deal about her husband. (One wonders how much she actually knew about the voyages themselves, as I would imagine Cook perhaps didn't tell her much about the details which Nelson would certainly have been interested in.) She must have been a remarkable lady, surviving not only her husband but, sadly, all of her children – and I believe dying just a short while before Victoria came to the throne in 1837.

I think you can tell I've been doing a little light reading! Btw, I have just been watching the third in the new mini series about Cook, currently being broadcast here in Sweden. I'm finding it very good.

Apparently Cook's widow Elizabeth lived with her cousin Isaac Smith's family at Abbey Gate House, Merton, for a great many years, following Cook's death in 1779. Isaac Smith accompanied James Cook on board the Endeavour. He is the subject of this post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1461

Thanks for all your replies.
It would need very detailed research but as you all have made clear very unlikely.
A lot of admiralty 'goings on' were also secret yes? (still are)
Wasn't Cook requested to wait until he was in open sea, to open his 'orders' which would reveal the exact nature in detail of what was expected of him ?
It was obvious they would be away for many months but going into uncharted areas was literally sailing into darkness.
Transit of venus and breadfruit being part of the saga + war was raging frequently!
David.

Would Jervis do instead of Nelson?

I remember how delighted I was (as a native Montrealer) to learn that John Jervis, James Cook and James Wolfe served together on the St Lawrence River prior to the battle of the Plains of Abraham. Three such disparate threads of history crossing.

Cook was surveying the St Lawrence - I don't know if all three men actually met on the same vessel.
(There's a comment on Wikipedia that so indicates - but the information is not in the referenced source)

"Jervis was promoted commander on 15 May [1759] and on 4 July he was made acting commander of the sloop Porcupine, an appointment confirmed by the Admiralty. It was here he met and impressed General James Wolfe with his decision and promptness. With the frigate Halifax, the Porcupine led the ships in charge of transports past Quebec to take part in the capture of that fortress. The story that Wolfe sent his last message and her miniature to Lady Katherine Lowther, to whom he was engaged, by Jervis may be true. But Jervis did not deliver them in person." [Oxford DNB]

Thank you Mr Collingwood,
John Jervis was born in Staffordshire England at a place called Meaford Hall in 1735.
James Wolfe was born in Westerham Kent England in 1727 and died in battle Quebec Canada in 1759, aged 32, at a place called the 'heights of abraham'.
Theres a place called Matlock in Derbyshire,which has a 'cable car' it ascends up to the 'heights of abraham', the area is also known as 'little switzerland' Jervis would of known about this place because its relatively near Staffordshire.

David.