Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Definitely an interesting area of research.

I believe they had experimented with steam powered boats by 1805 - but there was nothing in regular use by then. Would have been horse-drawn or sails.

I have seen pictures of wagons which were built with very wide wheels in order to spread the weight of heavy loads. But that of course increased the drag and therefore the number of horses needed.

Those guys did not have easy lives!!

MB


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:41 am 
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Hello Tiltwick,

A belated welcome to the forum! This is becoming an informative discussion and you have an interesting website. Good luck with your society for making the Rotherham cannons better known, as this is something which I am sure many have not heard about - including me!

I think Mark is right, 1805 would probably have been just a little too early for steam-powered barges (I think I am right in saying that the earliest steam powered craft in regular traffic was the passenger vessel Charlotte Dundas, on the Clyde in 1812.) The roads in those days would not have been very good anywhere, so if possible water would have been the preferred means of transportation. The barges would probably have been horse drawn, but perhaps using small sails on the 'downwind' stretches and minding of course any bridges! One clue here would be the existence of any old 'tow' paths - the name being self explanatory. In actual fact horse drawn barges were very likely used well into the steam age.

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Last edited by Devenish on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Quote:
A belated welcome to the forum! This is becoming an informative discussion and you have an interesting website. Good luck with your society for making the Rotherham cannons better known, as this is something which I am sure many have not heard about - including me!

Thank you for the welcome devenish.There was somebody back in the seventies, JL ferns researching the Rotherham cannons,and trying to bring it to a wider audience,but he didnt have the internet and certainly didn't put together any sort of society.

William turner visited Rotherham in 1797 and actually sketched/painted the interior of the Walker canon works.Don't know whether this was at at Masborough or conisborough.It is only a small copy of his painting,so I am working on tracking down a larger version.

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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Can anybody pin down exactly what these cannons are?
They make up a wall on the driveway of a former walker house here in rotherham.
We are looking to get this listed but need more information on exactly what they are.Has you can see in the pictures they are failed castings,could they be some sort of carronade?

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 pm 
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T

How absolutely intriguing.

I never saw anything like that before.

Sorry if this is a completely naive question - but are you sure they are cannon?

From the photo the metal doesn't look thick enough - or it may be just the way the photo is taken.

Are there any photos from the side or rear?

MB


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Hi mark
Your right Im not sure they are cannons.
The current house owners are a bit snooty,so far I havent been able to get a good look at them.(I jumped over the wall)
The walls are about 3/4inch thick which is why I thought of a carronade.
its a puzzle


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:41 pm 
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T

I just can't see that those are cannon.

They couldn't lie so closely together and compactly if they were.

I think it needs an expert on the iron industry to cast an eye over them. A lot of them seem to have a sort of end cap on them. Makes me think they are some type of cylindrical metal containers.

And below is a picture of a carronade (incidentally from the Carron company in Scotland) - so nothing to do with carronades either.

Image

MB


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:39 am 
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Tiltwick,

I don't think these are guns not even, as you see from Mark's photo, carronades. As Mark said, they wouldn't lie so close together and parallel if they were. Most guns have a taper, plus reinforce rings, trunnions etc., (which I can't see) and which would mean that stacking them like that would be quite difficult, unless perhaps alternate layers are reversed (and even then getting them to look so uniform probably wouldn't be that easy.) My guess is they are old lead pipes of some kind. It looks as though there is a number or letter stamped on the end of them.

I suppose you couldn't either brave the owner's wall, or perhaps better ask nicely, if you can have another look? Actually, have you tried asking them what they are, perhaps tell them why you are so interested? They might actually know! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:32 pm 
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I feel sure that such an unusual feature must have been investigated/documented previously.

If you haven't already done so I would be speaking to the folk at the Rotherham Archive & Local Studies.

And/or the Rotherham Local History Society(Council).

Even though there is most likely no naval connection I am intrigued to know what they are.

Building a wall from failed castings reminds me of a local story here. i.e. there used to be a building called Hockley Abbey which was actually a private residence built in 1770. But the building was built solely from slag from the local furnaces!!

Recycling? Nothing new there!!

MB


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:12 pm 
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I will have a go at getting a closer look tommorow.they might be nicer than I think (the house owners).The walkers did manufacture other iron items,somebody suggested on seeing the pictures, they might be some sort of drainpipe or sewar pipes of some sort.
stay tuned


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:54 pm 
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New image and information on the walker cannons.
I have just been sent this image of a walker cannon on the island of St lucia in the caribbean.
This cannon is at fort rodney,named after admiral rodney.
You can clearly see W co on the trunnion.


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:23 am 
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This is the same Rotherham cannon at fort rodney on st lucia a 24 pounder.
This was taken off the ship HMS fame, and dragged up here along a specially built track.

Image

Below is a sketch made by the Artist william turner, of the Walker cannon works at conisborough 1797,showing the norman castle on the left, with the Walker cannon boring mill.You can just see the water wheel, in the centre of the sketch, that powered the cannon boring mill that bored out the cannon above on St lucia,the cannon would have been test fired here as well.
Sadly its now just a large housing estate where the boring mill was.

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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:33 am 
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My research into how the Rotherham cannons were transported as unearthed this little snippet of information,from a local society in mexborough on the outskirts of Rotherham,and lies on the path of the don
There were large ocean going barges called billy boys,powered by sail and horse drawn when there was no wind.
Mention is made of cannon balls found in the mexborough canal,back in 1983.I have arranged to meet up with somebody who may have some of these.





What the Inland Waterways Meant to the People of Mexborough
Last month I told you of how the River Don changed over the years from a small meandering river, carrying boats only capable of carrying a few out, into a canal which could take sea going "Billy Boys" (sea going coastal barges) carrying cargoes weighing over a hundred tons. But what did all these facts and figures mean to the average person I can hear you ask. Well, it simply changed life beyond all recognition.
Following the alterations to the river brought about in the C17th by Sir Cornelius Vermuyden, this area had a link with the outside world, and many of our citizens met foreigners for the first time, when Vermuyden brought many Dutch workmen with him who stayed to live and bring up families, and names such as Scholes and Scholey came into our vocabulary.
Prior to the River Don being made navigable, goods had firstly to be got to a point in the river where a cargo boat could be docked, and it is interesting to note that prior to navigation, for three quarters of the year, cargo boats could get no further upstream than Doncaster, therefore goods had to be transported there by packhorse. This could explain why the packhorse track through Mexborough became so well used and well developed, (12th December 1883 the Mexborough Local Board Book tells us that a wall under construction on Harlington Road revealed paved remnants of the track which measured 17ft. 6in in width, how wide it was when the track was in full use we can only guess). The Early History of the Don Navigation by T.S. Willan tells of Thomas Patter of Warrington, who in c.1701 took his tobacco from the Mersey to Stockport by cart, and then from there by packhorse along the tracks, probably via Mexborough, to Doncaster, and then from there to Hull by water.
Large amounts of men, who became known as Navvies (short for Navigational Labourer) were also needed to make the river navigable by deepening it and constructing cuts, which again brought an influx of men from other areas who again stayed to live here. This was followed in 1758 by Lock Keepers, to look after Mexborough's two locks, Wharfingers (a man who looks after a wharf) also came to oversee the correct running of our wharfs, and porters on these wharfs, all of which needed houses to live in with their families which must have brought employment to Mexborough's masons.
Contact with the outside world, and the large deposits of coal and clay brought firstly the pottery industries. It is not certain exactly when the pottery industry started in Mexborough, but certainly the map now in the possession of the Borthwick Institute at York dated 1778, clearly shows a pottery on Lower Dolcliffe Road on the site of what became Mexborough Brickworks. As to whether it was purely a pottery is not clear, as many of the old houses in Mexborough built at this time, such as "The Old Farm" on Market Street, constructed during the Napoleonic Wars, have internal walls made from hand made local bricks, so it is possible that it combined the making of pottery with that of making bricks.
But although it brought industry, work and prosperity to Mexborough in some towns and villages it wrought disaster. For years the force of the river had been harnessed to power the wheels of iron and steel mills, and the owners of these mills mobilised themselves into a pressure group to stop the River Don from becoming navigable, as they knew that this would take away the power of the water needed to turn the wheels. One of these being a Mr. Savile, who had estates in Mexborough and owned an iron working mill called Ickles Mill, situated below Jordan Dam, between Rotherham and Tinsley. This is possibly the same individual who later became M.P. for Hayden 1747-54, M.P. for Shoreham 1761-68, and later, Viscount Polington and Earl of Mexborough. They were unsuccessful in their attempt to prevent the navigation, but to appease them cuts were put into the river to bypass the works. But despite the cuts unfortunately the rise in the popularity of the navigation meant the use of more water and eventually the navigation brought closure to many mills.
But one which was determined not to be closed down was Walkers of Masborough. Prior to the navigation Walkers had leased the water rights at Holmes from the Earl of Effingham where they had built a furnace and a rolling and grinding mill. They also had leased water rights at Thrybergh. On 23rd August 1770, Walkers paralysed the navigation and grounded a number of boats until the ironmasters received payment, Samuel Walker stating that "He would take every opportunity to impede the Navigation and he hoped his children would do it after him". The 15th September saw the navigation paralysed again when he set the forge to work, completely closing the Long Cut (this was the cut which stopped close to the church at Mexborough) and by the next day 70 or 80 boats were grounded. On 7th October, another 2 were aground and when the rolling mill was again set to work, a convoy of 30 boats ran aground. Samuel Walker again stating that "I left them there till they should be relieved by rain or till it should be Mr Walker's Pleasure to set them at Liberty". This compelled the navigation to pay the ironmasters £90 compensation annually, and to allow Walker use of the navigation free of charge from Holmes to Rotherham. This freedom from tolls must have come in very handy the following year (1771) when Walkers procured the contract to provide the Royal Ordinance with cannon, and their famous W.co began to be seen throughout the world notably on H.M.S. Victory, and barges carrying their cannon must have become a common sight on the navigation as they were carried through Mexborough to Conisbrough to be tried out at the quarry there, and many of their cannon balls were discovered on the canal bed at Mexborough in 1983 when it was drained for alterations.
Genealogists will have noticed that there is a disproportionately large amount of Sailors, Ships Carpenters, etc. in Mexborough per head of population from the 1830's to the 1850's. This is because during these times, large coastal sea-going barges known as "Billy Boys" could get up the canal as far as Sheffield, but after amalgamation between the canal and railway companies in order to favour the railways, the railway company ordered all swing bridges across the River Don to be closed so preventing these large barges from penetrating further inland than Goole.
Barges have always been pulled by horse, at times when there was no wind to fill the sails or when, for whatever reason, the mast and sails had to be removed. Following the decision by the railway companies to close all the swing bridges and to build low permanent bridges over canals and rivers used by barges, the use of the horse increased as the bridges necessitated the removal of both masts and sails. In areas such as ours where there was mass heavy industry and railway tracks were abundant necessitating the construction of railway bridges, yet another industry grew up, that of the horse marine, and many who already plied this trade on other canals were drawn here, and names such as Rownsley, Bisby and Roper became household names. The Horse Marine or Boat Hauler as many of you will know, was a man who owned one or two horses who would tow a barge to whatever destination you required for a fee. Mexborough was the furthest upstream to Sheffield a barge could get without the removal of its mast and sails, so on arrival here, the barge would firstly have its mast and sails removed at one of the wharfs to be found on Church or Market Street, then the captain would go to Ferry Boat Lane


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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:31 am 
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Tiltwick,

Thanks for posting such an interesting history. It would make good book, although I imagine that might have been done already! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Researching the walker cannons of Rotherham.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Is a 'Billy Boy' the same thing as a hoy?

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