Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:12 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2825
Location: mid-Wales
The following post was made on the private forum 'inside Nelson's World' by new member Emmteeyess (MTS). With his permission, I've also posted it here as it will be viewed by a wider audience and someone might have something to add:

My interest in Nelson's World came from finding out my ggg.grandfather, Barney Appleby, was on the Orion at the Battle of the Nile. I became hooked on the accounts of the battle and put together a document for my cousins.

I've located my ggg.grandfather Barney (Barnard or sometimes Bernard) APPLEBY on the ships muster for HMS Orion at the Battle of the Nile, and then on the muster for Gibraltar Hospital. (I got these from a great cd - 'Battle of the Nile Roll 1798' - available off t'internet.)
He was then discharged from the Hosital to HMS Defence early November 1798, and he'd joined the Orion on 11 Dec 1797 - I think it says from 'Hospl in Lisbon'. (the scan is difficult to read there).

Has anyone any details that I can fill in round the these dates, please?, I've got some ideas of where the Defence went, but no way of knowing if Barney was still on board, without a visit to the National Archives at Kew, to search the muster rolls. He doesn't show on any of the 'Trafalgar' sites so I assume he wasn't at that one!

I've got details of his application for the Nile clasp on the NGSM (granted) and that he was a Greenwich Pensioner when he died 1857 in Sunderland (aged 85) and plenty of census details - but I'd love to fill in his naval service record.

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
MTS

I thought people might be interested to see Barney's entry on the Orion Muster Book.

I took it from the same CD that you referred to. As you will be aware the August Muster Book is unfortunately lost. But it is quite clear from this subsequent Muster that he had been on the ship since December 11th 1797.

I agree that the writing in the "Whence . . . . . " column is quite hard to read.

I thought that the word you interpreted as "Hosp" may actually be "Sloop".

But now I see that the guy on the next line joined on December 19th and that entry definitely seems to read Lisbon Hosp. (i.e. Hospital)

Mmmmmm . . . . . . . !!

Anyone else?

Attachment:
Appleby.jpg
Appleby.jpg [ 37.05 KiB | Viewed 17271 times ]


MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Just having a bit of fun here.

Below are the "Whence . . . " entries for Barney and the guy below - blown up to 800%.

I am much more certain now that Barney's entry is not "Hosp" but "Sloop."

The word before could be the name of the ship, but as for that first word . . . . . ??!!

Anyone think I am talking rubbish please say. :)

Attachment:
Appleby1.jpg
Appleby1.jpg [ 130.43 KiB | Viewed 17270 times ]


MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
That third word looks a bit like "Sirius".

But I think Sirius was a Frigate not a Sloop. :(

Time for me to back off I think and concentrate on Man U. v Arsenal on the tele. :)

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Sunderland, England
Mark Barrett wrote:
MTS

I agree that the writing in the "Whence . . . . . " column is quite hard to read.

I thought that the word you interpreted as "Hosp" may actually be "Sloop".

But now I see that the guy on the next line joined on December 19th and that entry definitely seems to read Lisbon Hosp. (i.e. Hospital)


MB


Actually, my first interpretation was 'Sloop' too! and that's what I said in the stuff I put together for my cousins - but since then I went for 'Hosp', again in view of the other entries on the page and elsewhere. It was the 'in Lisbon' bit that swayed me.
However as for the first line I did wonder if the first word was 'Prest' and the first line then 'Prest in (something)'. Hence - 'Prest in (something) Sloop in Lisbon'.

So thanks for your views, and, any other thoughts anyone?

Cheers, MTS


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
MTS, Mark beat me to it! I also have a copy of the CD and had already looked and decided the word was 'sloop' before Mark posted. I am 90% sure of it, but I can't make out the preceding words.

It seems to me that there is a possibility that Barney/Bernard was at the Battle of Cape St Vincent - we need that sloop's name to track backwards - unless he was pressed from a merchant ship.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Tony wrote:
It seems to me that there is a possibility that Barney/Bernard was at the Battle of Cape St Vincent

Tony

He only got the Nile bar for his NGSM - so unlikely that he was at Cape St Vincent.

I just checked the NA for Muster Books of HMS Orion.

It gives Ref: ADM 36/11860 which has description 1797 Oct - 1799 Jan.

If the pages covering August etc. are missing as stated on the CD then hopefully the earlier months are still there and - that the writing re Appleby's origins is more legible. Would of course mean somebody going to Kew to make a physical inspection of the book.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Mark Barrett wrote:
Tony wrote:
It seems to me that there is a possibility that Barney/Bernard was at the Battle of Cape St Vincent
He only got the Nile bar for his NGSM - so unlikely that he was at Cape St Vincent.
Good point - not thinking straight!
Mark Barrett wrote:
If the pages covering August etc. are missing as stated on the CD then hopefully the earlier months are still there and - that the writing re Appleby's origins is more legible. Would of course mean somebody going to Kew to make a physical inspection of the book.
With luck, the same entry may be repeated several times.

I would suggest the first letter of the sloop's name is 'I' or 'J' - the top loop is the reverse of an 'S'.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Tony

I remembered that I had a copy of the "State of the Royal Navy" for 1799 which I copied from the Naval Chronicle. It lists the ships by name - but unfortunately it only goes down to Sixth Rates so doesn't include the Sloops. :(

I guess they will be in the Navy List but I don't know if I can get my hands on a Navy List for 1798 or thereabouts.

I wonder what happened to those pages from the Orion Muster Book - it sounds as if somewhere along the line somebody has torn them out.

As you say - if the previous sections are there the information should have been written several times and I feel sure that one of them will be more legible.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Sunderland, England
Mark Barrett wrote:
I wonder what happened to those pages from the Orion Muster Book - it sounds as if somewhere along the line somebody has torn them out.
MB


Some fascinating things there Mark and Tony, thanks. Please keep it coming.
It gives me some hope that I will get further with learning about Barney's naval career. I did suspect that I'd need to go to Kew at some stage and it is a possibility. Let's hope the earlier, original, entries are more legible than the scans.

One point - would the missing musters be missing out of a surviving 'book'? or is there a chance that the missing ones were washed overboard or something. The cd implies 'not survived' rather than 'missing by foul play!' Either way they're apparantly not available now though.

Cheers, MTS


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
emmteeyess wrote:
One point - would the missing musters be missing out of a surviving 'book'? or is there a chance that the missing ones were washed overboard or something. The cd implies 'not survived' rather than 'missing by foul play!'
Cheers, MTS


MTS

You've got me thinking here.

Although I have dealt with many copies from Muster Books I have never laid my hands on an original.

I have always assumed that they were already in bound form when they were completed on the ship. As you can see from the end column each "double page" was ruled to cover an 8 week period (albeit in the Orion pages on the CD they have actually squeezed in 12 weeks). At the end of that period I assumed they just moved on to the next vacant pages of the bound book . . . . . .

If I am right that the books were already bound then the 4 months that are apparently missing would have to have been torn out and that would be obvious.

But maybe I am wrong and loose sheets were used which were bound at a later date.

Maybe Tony or someone else can comment on this.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
If only life - or naval records - were that simple, Mark!

No, the monthly musters, which normally covered two (lunar) months (i.e. 8 weeks), were bound at a later date. Sometimes when viewing them at Kew it is immediately obvious that the individual monthly musters in a bound book have led very different lives, with varying degrees of 'dog-earedness', discolouration, water staining, etc.. I have come across books not only with missing months, but with the monthly lists bound in the wrong order, which gets very confusing until you look at the dates more closely!

So it is more likely the months are missing by accident rather than design.

But there were two sets of musters returned. As well as the monthly musters, there were General Musters or Open Lists, which covered twelve months before being returned. The Monthly Musters and Open Lists are both held in the same document series at the National Archives and are not distinguished in the catalogue. The Open Lists are supposed to have twelve months date columns on the right hand page, but I have never seen that. I suspect that the forms for monthly musters were often also used for the twelve monthly Open Lists, and more often than not, there are two muster books at the National Archives that will cover any given date, although starting and ending on different dates. I suppose these could also just be additional copies of the monthly musters. Can anyone answer this?

Anyway, in the case of the Orion, there are two muster books covering the dates in question:
ADM 36/11857 Ship: ORION 1795 Mar - 1799 Jan
ADM 36/11860 Ship: ORION 1797 Oct - 1799 Jan

There is also a pay book which will contain many of the same columns:
ADM 35/1213 Ship: Orion 1795 Oct. 1 - 1799 Jan. 6

So a trip to Kew should reap dividends!

The muster books also contain muster tables showing where the ship was at each muster - the name of the port or just 'at sea', and of course there are also the Captains and Masters logs which will have all the detailed movements.

But for the Orion, if you don't have it already, see also 'Memoirs and Correspondence of Admiral Lord de Saumarez, Vol. I by Sir John Ross': http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26031

P.S. I am pretty sure the entry in the muster does not say 'Prest in'. Other examples of the word 'Prest' in the muster are quite different. I think the first word starts with 'R'.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Tony

Thanks for that clarification.

I don't know what it says about me ( :D ) but I find the fine detail of how the Navy was organised and administered really fascinating.

This is just a rhetorical question (unless anyone DOES know the answer) - but I wonder how and how often the muster sheets were sent back home?

Would it be that every time a ship left the squadron/fleet to return to the home port - that they would be required to take any completed administrative documents plus, I suppose, official correspondence etc. etc. ?

If that is the case what sort of container would they be put in? I am thinking the equivalent of a diplomatic bag with a seal on it!

And presumably there would be documents for several different departments - so whose job would it be to divide them up and ensure they were properly delivered?

Just trivia of course - but I am intrigued to know!

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Sunderland, England
emmteeyess wrote:
Some fascinating things there Mark and Tony, thanks. Please keep it coming.
It gives me some hope that I will get further with learning about Barney's naval career. I did suspect that I'd need to go to Kew at some stage and it is a possibility. Let's hope the earlier, original, entries are more legible than the scans.


As above - but any thoughts now on where Barney went after the Orion and Gibraltar Hospital?
The Nile Muster cd shows him being Discharged to Defence (see p.1112) and I've googled HMS Defence and Capt Henry Paulet. etc.
On 1 July 1800, Defence, and others, sent in their boats to attack a French convoy at Île de Noirmoutier and In 1801, Defence sailed to the Baltic under Captain Lord Henry Paulet with Admiral Hyde Parker's fleet. I don't know if Barney was still on board or not.

Does anyone know any 'on line' sites that might be a help or are we again talking a visit to Kew for the musters?.

I know he doesn't show in any of the 'Trafalgar' listings and he was back in Sunderland and got married in 1814 - but that's a big gap to fill.

Cheers, MTS


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Barney Appleby
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
Using Mark's logic, if he didn't have a Copenhagen clasp to his NGSM, then presumably he left the Defence before then. Is it certain he only had the one clasp, or is the Nile the only one you have checked?

Mark, I believe ships musters were returned to the Clerk of the Cheque at the ship's home port/dockyard, but I don't know how frequently.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group