Nelson & His World

I'm still pursuing my research into John Ingram and unfortunately struggling to ascertain the date of his death.

On the 1851 census he is recorded as a Greenwich Pensioner so I thought I would pursue that route. (albeit the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll makes no mention of him being a GP)

I have ascertained that the "pay-books of Out-Pensions from Greenwich Hospital" are located at ADM 22/254-443" at the National Archive. I did a search on Ingram for the ADM 22 reference and got no results. Also tried Smith, Jones etc. and likewise got no results.

So the inference is that the details within the books are not available on line.

Is there any way I can confirm that? And if so, if I want to pursue this line of enquiry do I need to go to the NA myself or use a researcher based there.

Regarding the latter does anyone know/use a trusted researcher at the NA who could dip into those books for me if the need arises?

Thanks

MB

Mark:

when I worked at the PRO/NA, we had a register of researchers (or Record Agents as we called them) with their special fields of interest - genealogy, legal, military etc. and contact details, that we could supply to enquirers who weren't able to follow up research themselves. It would be worth enquiring whether the NA still maintains this list. Even then record agents were not cheap so it is best to establish fees at the beginning before you go down that route.

Most of them were excellent, though highly eccentric (and very entertaining.) One spent nearly all her earnings mailing religious tracts to Cabinet Ministers in the hope of converting them to the paths of virtue!

Anna

The wonderful world of research certainly does have its fair share of characters. Still as long as they don't harm themeselves, or others, long may it continue!!

I believe the NA still does have a list of researchers, which I will get hold of, but personal recommendation is always valuable.

I had a guy do several bits of investigation for me a few years ago. He was great but he went into full time work so I could no longer call on him.

If all else fails I will pick somebody off the NA list. But as you say will always agree an hourly rate and maximum cost before any work is done.

Thanks

MB

Hello Mark,

There is a world of difference between in-Pensioners and out-Pensioners. I have come across the following information from Judy Lester in London, which may be of use to your researcher:

http://searches2.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Mariners/2008-03/1205169058

Although the Ayshford roll is a very good document, it will not tell you all there is about an ancestor. After consulting Ayshford, I have spent many dozens of hours grappling with Admiralty records to get a picture of my Trafalgar ancestor's service history.

The Ayshfords have done a marvellous job. I do not see any claims that "anything you wanted to know about your Trafalgar ancestor, but were afraid to ask" would be addressed by the Ayshford DVD.

The Ayshford DVD does refer to Trafalgar veteran in-Pensioners and the rationale is that the in-Pensioners had a bulk application for the Naval General Service Medal. Thus, it is easy to identify the in-Pensioners from the medal roll.

To return to the issue of what is not on the DVD (and which can only be learnt through time intensive research in relation to an ancestor:)

My ancestor was invalided out of the Navy in 1814. He is listed as an out-Pension recipient in ADM 6/275. This document gives: the name of the recipient, their age, their time served, annualised pension amount, injury, payment duration "one year" or "life". His quarterly payment (received xmas 1814), name, annualised pension amount and number are the only info that are recorded in ADM 22/256.

He entered Greenwich as an in-Pensioner at the start of the 1830s, and left. He was re-admitted in 1837. His entry reference number from the second time is what appears on his medal roll entry. (I'm looking to reproduce a list of in-Pensioners who received medals on the website that I have been building; there is a link in my prior post.

There is no reference to neither the out-pension, nor the first admission as an in-Pensioner in Ayshford DVD. It simply isn't possible to take this information, and limit it to Trafalgar veterans. It would take a data mining team decades to do this. What the Ayshfords have done is to compile a good framework of some sources, and to have produced a scaleable dataset in time for the Trafalgar 200 celebrations.

Hopefully, the source referenced by Judy will indicate when he died. In terms of the injury suffered by John Ingram, the relevant Marine Division Discharge book should be of some interest, as well as ADM 6/272 (covering 1800-1807).

Best of luck in your ongoing research

Greenwich Pensioner, are you the owner of http://sites.google.com/site/greenwicha ... npensioner ?
I was looking at that site, but had a problem with trying to send the Contact form.

In any case, perhaps someone here can help.

I have the Discharge Certificate for a Royal Marine private endorsed with his admission date (1846) and his listing in the Rough Entry Book. The entry dates are the same and his identity in the latter is confirmed by previously known place of birth, age, marital status and number of children, but there is no pensioner number. I have now found a man of the same name and rank on the NGS Medal list on the above website together with his number and would like to confirm it is the same individual. The advice on the site is that the latter number helps access the General Register and that this may give additional information. What information would it give apart from what is on the Medal list website and the Rough Entry? Would it name other ships he had been on?

From his entry date he should be in the General Registers in either ADM 73/ 46 or 47. Knowing that, would it be a very time consuming exercise to find his entry or are they all neatly and clearly in numerical order and/or name in alphabetical order?

I have several more related questions, but that will do for now.

Thanks to anyone who wades through this and can give me any help,

Barry

Hello Barry,
I am indeed the owner of that website.

The numbers with the NGS medals are the numbers that are appearing in the General Register. The entries are in numerical order. The relevant volume will be either ADM 73/46 or ADM 73/47 for 1846 I think.

When a new volume was started, the names of the existing in-pensioners would be entered, in the order in which they arrived. Thereafter, the names of the new entrants, and their allocated sequential numbers would be entered in the book. During the time that a Register was in use, if an in-Pensioner died or left, this would be recorded on the far right margin.

If, for example, your ancestor's admission to Greenwich is recorded in ADM 73/47, but there is nothing in the margin, it is worth looking at ADM 73/48 to see if he is at the start of the Register, and to see if it records in the margin the date that he died/left.

Given that you have an entry date in 1846 from the Rough Entry Book, and you know his General Register number from the Medal Roll, you will indeed be able to very quickly find his entry in the General Register. (I would say within 5 minutes of having opened the correct Register.) If you cannot make it to Kew, it should be possible to pay the staff a fee for taking a copy of the Register entry. It's far more exciting to go yourself, to read the pages, and to take a digital photo.

My ancestor served on six ships, and one ship was mentioned in the Rough Entry Book which was not mentioned in the General Register. At the end of the day, you want to cover all angles.

If your Royal Marine ancestor's cerificate of service has not survived (these are in the ADM73 series for Greenwich admissions), you then have a lengthy process of using the ADM96 records. These record the names of Marines in each administrative company, who were subsisted whilst on shore. They record the ships from which each man had come, and the ship to which each man went. You then leapfrog from ship to ship, similarly recording the time spent ashore as a Marine.

Hope this helps

Regards, GP

Hi Barry,

Thanks for having got in touch, and having told me about the two Wyley brothers from Melksham who entered Greenwich in 1843 & 1846, and who received Naval General Service Medals for their respective services in the Royal Marines.

Hope you got the e-mail I sent you an hour ago.

Regards, GP