Nelson & His World

What would the situation have been for learning the 3 Rs on board ships?

Obviously Pursers and others could read and write, and junior officers and whoever had to read the charts (sorry - my knowledge of ranks and duties is a bit vague and only learned off the telly!) and do calculations.

Would an A/B have been taught as a matter of course to read and write, or would it be only done if he showed an interest and an aptitude to advance?

I know Barney Appleby (see other threads!) came out of the Navy able to sign his name, but how and why he learned to is still open to speculation.

Following another thread, would learning and teaching the 3 Rs be other 'Pastimes at Sea'?

Cheers, MTS

Many men were, of course, illiterate in those days before universal education; but not all seamen were. Among those supplied for service were Quota Men - each county having to supply men for the navy. A number of these might well have been literate, as were the 'Lord Mayor's men' who were from good family but had got themselves in trouble. We discussed it here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=613&hilit=lord+mayor%27s+men

The choice between a prison sentence and service at sea was often given to men convicted of drunkenness, (this is mentioned in 'Diary of a Georgian Shopkeeper' by Thomas Turner) so there would have been a smattering, or possibly more, of literate men among ordinary seamen, though their spelling was often highly individual!

Roy and Lesley Atkins in their book, 'Jack Tar' (a highly readable, interesting work) also mention that seamen learned to read and write during their leisure time.

MTS

I agree with Anna's points that an AB could definitely have had a basic level of numeracy and literacy.

Another thing that comes to mind is the Sunday School system which had started in the 1780's. I believe some small payment was required for children to attend - but the main aim of the system was to provide "literacy education alongside religious instruction."

So any child who attended Sunday School would at the very least have been able to sign his name.

Also worth mentioning that many early schools used the pupil/teacher system.

i.e. as soon as a pupil gained a certain proficiency or skill he would then pass that on to the pupils below him.

I am quite certain that that philosophy was carried over to certain of the ships of HM Navy.

MB

Mark are you talking about literacy through religious education, or do you know of the teaching of general numeracy and literacy in specific ships?

Tony

Sorry - I didn't explain myself properly.

I was just thinking of the literacy aspect - not the religion.

And just that if one of the seamen had the ability to read and write and others had the desire to learn - then a strong possibility that little informal teaching groups might form.

Just conjecture on my behalf.

MB

Without any statistics to back it up - I do have a feeling then that as a group/trade/occupation, mariners were probably more literate than many other groups in society at that time eg - ag.labs, mill workers, chain makers and miners say. I'm basing this on marriage certificates I have from my family history where the groom and even more often the bridegroom (and witnesses) could not sign their name and only made their mark. (Funnily enough Barney's son, Bernard, a chain maker, couldn't sign his name on certificates in 1840 or 1865.)

Again, without statistics to back it up, mariners seemed more literate than soldiers at the time - or is that only in Sharpe?

Cheers, MTS

MTS,

I would certainly agree with you. In the navy, and probably the army, the keeping of records was all important – and certainly so where pay and other important considerations largely hinged on the production of them. I'm not saying of course that records weren't kept ashore in many trades but in the services, which were of such vital importance to the existence of the nation at that time, I would imagine these had even more significance. Not only pay, but all the requirements of individual ships and fleets in order to keep them at sea and in fighting condition, could be gleaned from them.

In this regard therefore it was vital that many men were literate, especially if they had in any sort of warranted position such as purser, boatswain, carpenter, etc. I am sure that even if men only had a rudimentary 'education', or none, when when they first joined a ship, it certainly would have been beneficial to them to learn the three r's, especially if they wanted to rise to any position.

I can imagine that in any gundeck 'mess' there was probably also a certain amount of 'encouragement' for men to learn from their messmates, even if they might have been reluctant. Very likely too, many men would not want to be seen as being 'out of step' with their companions!

Regarding Sharpe, whilst the inclusion of a philosophical and poetic Rifleman might be a bit overblown, there is probably an element of truth in the script!

Just a light-hearted snip which has nothing to do with the thread:
Capt Alexander Ball was a Lord Mayor's grandchild, having been born in the same year his grandfather -- Marshe Dickinson -- was Lord Mayor of London -- 1756

Here is a link and a comment I made in a post ages ago, a first hand account of his experiences at Trafalgar by a seaman who was literate (sort of!):

'here is the personal account of James Martin, a seaman who served at Trafalgar in Neptune under Captain Fremantle. The language is quite touching: he has clearly adopted the use of grandiose words to add dignity to his narrative, but his uncertain grasp of this elevated vocabulary, and an even more uncertain grasp of spelling and grammar add unintended humour and pathos to his story.'

http://www.camulos.com/trafalgar/jamesmartin.pdf

EMP - another interesting snip about Sir Alexander Ball - why not copy it to the thread we have on him so we can find it more easily if we need to?

Hmm... I am very sceptical indeed that much, if any, learning went on on board ship. Obviously many seamen could read, and some could write, and there is certainly plenty of evidence that they did in fact do so. Indeed, Nelson and others provided bibles. But although I have come across references to one seaman writing a letter for another, I cannot recall a single mention of anyone actually being taught to read or write while on board. Please could someone point me to a reference to this?

Roy and Lesley Adkins even say that "where the majority were illiterate, some of those who could read and write pretended they could not, while others who were poor readers and writers lost what little skill they once had", although they don't provide a reference for that either!

But I do rather suspect that rose-tinted spectacles may be in use here!