Nelson & His World

Tony

Good point and point taken.

At such a late stage any "justification" of their actions achieves absolutely nothing.

So happy to withdraw that original idea and urge immediate action by all on here.

MB

All thanks to Tony for opening this thread here.

It's good news that the Nelson Society, through Nick Slope, has reacted to this narrow window of opportunity so speedily. And now that the 1805 Club are also on board, it's reassuring that the big guns are really stirring.

Twitter has been active on the subject too (thanks to Tony again for directing traffic from there to here), and one excellent museum contact Paul Fraser Webb has suggested informing Barbara Tomlinson at the NMM.

Are the National Museums - NMM and NMRN aware of the issue - and are they responding?

Another Twitterstorian, James Perriman, asked what the Government have to say about it?

Is it the case that everyone - including the Culture Secretary and our National Maritime/Naval Museums - are only now becoming aware of the proposed sale of these '2 flags' - a very few days before the deadline for objections passes?

It feels important to have answers to the question of how this has been allowed to happen - for the sake of these massively important treasures right here, right now - and in case it happens again in future.

Tony,
I’ve sent my ten-pennyworth to Registrar Carew-Jones.

Jacqui,
Sorry to hear about your financial situation but St James’ is a worthwhile cause and not just because Sir Alexander John Ball got married there.

Thanks for all the action, comment, and suggestions.

I may be out on a limb here, but I think that talk of national museums is premature. Although national treasures, these flags belong in the Hilton Chapel at the parish church in Selling, where they are an integral part of the history of the parish and the people. If the security issues really cannot be overcome (and there should be a proper study into this), then the flags should go on loan for permanent display somewhere in Kent. I believe this also happens to be Church of England policy for such treasures. If for any reason they do go to a national museum, this must be on the condition that they are put on permanent display. There is a danger that if they go to the NMM for example, they will spend much of the time in store, and will only rarely be seen in special exhibitions. That would not be much of an improvement on the current situation and they would be permanently lost to the Hilton family and the people of Selling.

P.S. I have written to The Times.

Tony,

I see your point. However, if the flags cannot remain in Selling and they have to stay in Kent, then the Historic Dockyard at Chatham might offer a good solution - provided of course that they are on permanent display. Minotaur, as you know, was also built not so far away at Woolwich. I feel sure that the Dockyard already know of the flags, and have heard of the furore over their sale. Just a suggestion, should it come to that.

Any possibility you might post your letter to the Times here?

Tony,

I have edited one of my previous posts and deleted the other as the contents were superfluous. Many apologies. I raced through the thread at speed and just caught the gist which was enough to alarm and prompt my response, despite my exhaustion.

I shall be sending off my letter of objection today and encourage all who read this forum to do the same.

Many thanks for bringing this to our attention and co-ordinating the campaign for objections.

The RNMN representative on Twitter retweeted my original message there. There is no sign yet that the others you mention are even aware of the situation. N.B. The proposed disposal could mean sale, or it could mean donation, but if approved it will allow sale.

One of my 'tweets' has now been retweeted by Dan Snow and consequently many others, which has helped views of this thread now to reach over 1,400 (although I think it had reached 1,000 before that). Thanks Jacqui for helping to spread the word on Twitter.

If the flags really cannot stay in Selling, then Chatham would be a good location. It has a particular resonance for me as at the time of Trafalgar the house of Charles Mansfield, Captain of the Minotaur, was at Rochester overlooking the Medway close to Chatham. Mansfield recruited several of the Minotaur's officers and about 35 crew from Kent. But I certainly wouldn't assume the Dockyard already know of the flags. They probably don't!

The Times ask for exclusivity, so I had better not just yet. I think you can figure out the gist of it!

Tony

Good luck with the Times. I had a Nelson-related letter published a while back so I know they will be receptive to the subject matter.

Somewhere along the line it might be worth trying to catch the attention of a journalist at a newspaper such as the Daily Mail. I used to say to people that I reckoned the Mail writers were on an incentive scheme. i.e. they got a little bonus every time they managed to squeeze Nelson's name into an article.

But joking aside - one of the mass-market newspapers might just run with it.

MB

Do the Nelson Society issue Press Releases?

Might be a vehicle to get to a wider audience.

Just a thought.

MB

Ok, Tony. Yes, I think we might have an idea!

Chatham sounds ideal as an alternative, with additional this link to Captain Mansfield, if the flags cannot remain at Selling. No, I shouldn't assume, but I would be surprised if Chatham no nothing of these historic flags only a few miles down the road!


Mark, I have no idea, but if they do perhaps they've already done it!

The Daily Telegraph published a letter, together with a large picture, noting the existence of the Minotaur flags at the time of the sale of the Spartiate flag.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/lett ... -Kent.html

Maybe a call to the newsdesk to alert them to the planned sale at Selling might elicit some interest, and the support of a few retired admirals.

That's the way my mind was working!

MB

Good idea, please feel free! I have a lot on my plate right now. Anyone?

I believe that Chatham Dockyard was approached back in 2007. I know there were substantial discussions with Rochester Bridge Wardens which eventually fell through, and I assume that discussions with Chatham also fell through.

In 2007 the estimated cost of the required conservation work on the flags was less than £5,000 per flag. I know that the funding for conservation work was a major issue to the church, but the amount seems pretty trivial to me, and I'm sure could easily be raised, especially now that both the Nelson Society and the 1805 Club are prepared to play a part in assisting in the finding of funds. I think the sale price achieved by the Spartiate's flag two years ago probably throws a new light on these amounts.

It is perhaps some consolation to reflect that not all churches regard their treasures as an inconvenience.

The guide book to Sherborne Abbey draws the attention of visitors to a threadbare flag:

Near the north transept of this fine building are the remains of one of the regimental colours of the Dorset Regiment. Beneath it is written:

A moth-eaten rag, on a worm-eaten pole,
It doesn't seem much,
To stir a man's soul,
'Tis the deeds that were done,
'Neath the moth-eaten-rag,
When the pole was a staff and the rag was a flag.

Such colours, standards or guidons, symbolise our duty to God. They are a sign of our resolve to guard our Christian values: integrity, loyalty and devotion to duty.'

His Lordship, parson's son, would have said 'Amen' to that!

Justin Reay has just obtained some vital information from the Registrar on how objections can made, and what they must contain in order to be considered. I'm afraid this may require you to amend your objections.


The question of whether an application has been tabled is a little confusing, but the 15 September deadline stands. The church has posted a public notice on 19 August, but does not have to forward the application to the Registrar until the end of the 28 day period. Objections do have to be raised within the 28 day period ending 15 September - in anticipation of the church proceeding with making the application.

I don't know whether that makes the process any clearer, but the point is that objections must be received by the Registrar by 15 September and must fulfil the above criteria.