Nelson & His World

I came across a newspaper article from 1874 which reads as follows:

Could a gun be identified to a specific ship and if so how? Apologies if it is obvious but if so it has passed me by!!

MB

Mark,

Since the article doesn't specify, I presume the order came from the Admiralty. I don't actually know the answer to this but, that being so, there must surely have been some distinguishing mark or number to pick them out from the 'thousands of old guns'. Whether this just identified the guns from the Victory because of her fame, I have no idea, but my suspicion is that guns for all ships would have been marked in similar fashion.

The navy and other institutions, then like today, immerse themselves with paper work and account for everything, so I wouldn't mind betting that there was a well-worn system in place for keeping tab of ships guns and what happened to them. It they may also have been the case that guns were returned to Woolwich Arsenal as a matter of course, since that was where they were made, either for storage until they were needed again – or disposal, which was no doubt recorded as well!

Of course at this time the Victory was moored in Portsmouth Harbour and I found an interesting quote in Peter Goodwin's book, 'Nelson's Ships'. This says that in 1869 she became tender to the Duke of Wellington and that, 'it was during these years that Victory started to receive public visitors by boat.' Old seamen also began to give unnofficial tours and a small museum was begun on board. I would strongly suggest that this order to Woolwich was connected with Victory's new role.

I wonder when the guns were removed - in that there was still a hope of tracing them in 1874.

I am sure that the folk at Woolwich Arsenal would not have been sent on a complete wild goose chase.

There is one reason why I am particularly interested if guns were marked in any way.

The bases of the gaslamps at the corners of the Nelson statue in Birmingham were made from old cannon.

The lamps were scrapped in the 1960's when the statue was relocated - and the cannon were sold off. But by a near miracle 2 of them were traced (around the time of the Trafalgar bi-centenary) and given back to the city on permanent loan. They have been refurbished and are brought out once a year for the Trafalgar Day parade.

Of course a few people still claim that they were from HMS Victory but they are the wrong calibre.

Nevertheless it would be fascinating to know which ship they did come from.

The guy who had them restored is very knowledgeable about armaments of this era and I am sure that if they were marked in any way he would have told us.

But who knows!!

MB

If anyone is interested the 2 images below show:
1. the cannon as they originally looked
2. the two cannon that were traced and refurbished. This is outside Birmingham Town Hall on Trafalgar Day.

One of the gun carriages recovered from the wreck of the Colossus in the Scillies was marked with the name of the ship, as well as its number within the ship. The CISMAS survey report notes that: However, I don't know if any more examples exist, other than from the Colossus.

I believe the guns themselves also usually had a manufacturer's serial number on the trunnions. I don't know if any record was kept of whch guns were issued to each ship, but guns were regularly removed and replaced when ships were docked, and I have the impression (but no firm evidence) that the same guns were always returned to the same ship.

Thanks Tony.

It seems to open up a whole lot of new questions.

1. Are there indeed serial numbers on the trunnions? I feel that I would have noticed them if there were numbers on these Birmingham cannon - but I will check them out at the next Trafalgar day parade.

2. Were records kept of specific cannon issued to/returned from a ship? I will try and do a bit more work on that. I am sure that somewhere I have seen an inventory taken by an armourer. Again I feel I would have remembered if there were any reference/serial numbers quoted but I could be wrong.

3. When were guns separated from their trucks. i.e. when guns were removed from a ship did the trucks go with them?

etc. etc.

Yet again it seems that the more we know the less we know!!

MB

Mark,

I have to correct a small error that I made, in saying that all the guns were made at Woolwich Arsenal. They weren't of course, being made in many other places, but they had to be sent to Woolwich for testing. Apparently they were then loaded with powder, well beyond the normal capacity used aboard ship, then fired. If they survived the firing, they were then examined for cracks, and if none were found they were then passed and sent to the ordnance depots at Plymouth, Portsmouth, etc!

I feel sure that all this was documented somewhere, including the questions you pose. I would also think that guns and their carriages were often separated for various reasons, perhaps either the gun was damaged or vice versa, and they were compatible with other carriages (or guns of the same calibre).

Incidentally, where you say 'trucks' I assume you mean the carriages - the trucks were the wheels, although they were referred to as truck carriages, probably to distinguish them from the carronade carriages, which of course were fixed.

Good luck with your researches – and be careful when examining the guns at the Trafalgar Day ceremony. I'm sure you will do this either before or after the parade, but we wouldn't want you to be arrested!

I finally looked in the obvious place! From http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?It ... &task=view :- And, referring to the Blomefield 32 pounders from around 1813:- I would be interested to know what records still exist.

Thanks Kester - a bit "loose" with my terminology there!!

I checked out a couple more sources and an interesting picture is coming together here.

I cannot find any evidence as yet that the manufacturers (gunfounders) put any kind of unique serial number on the guns they produced.

I have here a copy of a little book titled "Gunfounding and Gunfounders." It goes through the process of forming the model/making the mould/the casting process/boring/examination and proof.

At the end of this section it says:



I did not see any evidence of a serial number being added either at the casting or finalisation stages.

My next port of call was a facsimile copy of the "Regulations and Instructions relating to his Majesty's Service at Sea." (I believe now available on http://www.archive.org)

Under the section for Gunner/Armourer & Gunsmith it states the following:



So we can be certain that guns were both specific to a ship AND a carriage on that ship.

BUT what is that number engraved over the trunnion. I am assuming it is just an internal number for that specific ship but I may be wrong.

I am definitely keen now to take a look at the 2 Birmingham cannon as soon as the opportunity arises. But there is of course, the strong possibilty that any numbers have become obscured over the years.

If anyone is planning a visit to the Victory in the meantime . . . . . . .

MB

Mark, you are a hard man to please! The information from http://www.hms-victory.com in my previous post seems pretty specific that the makers mark is on the left trunnion, and the guns individual number is on the right trunnion, and I don’t see much reason to disbelieve it! But here is some more very detailed information from an article by Don Scott on Walker cannon: The full article is at http://cannons.yolasite.com/don-scotts- ... annons.php which is member Tiltwick’s website. See also his Walker Cannon thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=873

It would also be worth taking a look at ADM 160/154 Returns of ordnance on H.M. Ships. 1803-1812 held at the National Archives.

See also this web page 'How to Read a Cannon': http://www.tcmuseum.org/projects/governors-cannon/ This suggests the most common form of serial numbering within a foundry was chronological numbers of each caliber and sometimes also for each length/pattern.

Tony

Sorry if I came over a bit negative! My excuse is that I was a bit jaded after ploughing through 13 pages about the gunfounding process and no mention at all of the need for a serial/registry number.

But I am sure now that that was an omission on their part.

I have found a web page with some neat illustrations.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=157505.0

These guns are U.S. made and somewhat later but I am sure the procedures would not have been markedly different.

It also clarifies that the numbers on the guns could place them on a particular ship!

One major variable seems to be the positioning of the serial number. i.e. it could be on the end of the trunnion, above the trunnion, on the breech ring etc. etc.

I can't wait to pore over those Birmingham cannon with my magnifying glass!

If only I knew which Council Depot they live in for the other 364 days of the year . . . . . !

Tony - As you say really intriguing now to know what is in that section ADM 160/154 at the NA.

MB

Interesting photos, Mark, and it's also interesting that there is a 'Known Surviving Civil War Cannon list'. I think you have got yourself a project now for Royal Navy cannon! Just remember Kester's warning before you start scraping the paint off the Birmingham cannon...

Tony, That is so funny. I nearly mentioned that. But then I thought "No Mark, don't go there!"

But - all joking aside - now that we know every cannon is unique I am intrigued to check out the numbers of any that I come across.

But first things first. I'll see what I can find on the Birmingham ones. I am fairly au fait with the logistics of setting them out. And I'll clear it with somebody in charge before I start mooching around. I shan't be asking the mayor to stand aside or anything like that! Promise!!

MB

Phew! I guess we can all breath a sigh of relief then!

I've just found this interesting site about Woolwich Arsenal:

http://www.johnsmilitaryhistory.com/woolwich.html

If you scroll down to Dial Arch Square, and then look under gun boring, there is some information there (last paragraph).

Kester

I'm sure you noticed that at the end of that article it confirms that the serial number was engraved on the gun right at the end of the manufacturing process.



Of course thinking more logically now it makes sense that it would only be done after it had passed the proofing process.

Not meaning to start a new topic of debate but I wonder what the tool looked like that was capable of engraving into solid cast metal like that??!!

MB

P.S. The Woolwich Arsenal looks an interesting place. Many years back I worked for 6 months in Woolwich. But it was before I caught the "Nelson bug" so unfortunately never took the opportunity to investigate.