Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Hi All
I have just joined the group today.I want to let people see a relic that I have had for over 47 years.Its Lady Hamiltons Seal and is an impression torn from one of her letters. I was given the seal by a Miss Daisy Bawden who used to live next door to my Nan.Her father was Capt Arthur Richard Phipps Bawden RN and her mother was called Lily Dathan .Both the Dathan and Bawden families had fathers /grandfathers who all served in the RN and rose through the ranks to Captains.The seal has been verified by the British Library .I will post some more info soon.

The seal says "Lord Nelson God Bless Him Amen Amen Amen " The sun is shining from the top and there are laurel leaves etc on both sides.


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:26 pm 
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That is fascinating. Could you please tell more about what led Miss Bawden to give it to you, and anything else you might know of its history. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:43 pm 
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Miss Bawden lived with her friend Dorothy and they lived next door to my Nan and Grandad in Lancing Sussex. We knew her from childhood and were always polite to her . When she got old she had to go into a nursing home and having no contact with her family she gave us some nautical artefacts via my grandad. There was a barograph made by Negretti and Zambra , a persuader or starter which dates from early 1800s. I looked after the seal which is in an old pill box and written in pencil are the words " Lady Hamiltons Seal "I have had it validated by the British Library and will post the details on here. I am going to attach a postcard sent to her father.I have traced the family back to Charles Bawden and his brother Capt Charles Clifford Peel Bawden born in Mevagissey. Bawden Bay in Clifford Point in Canada are named after them. I have got back to RN Commander Richard Bawden b 1786 in Rame Cornwall using the internet to link them all together as I do not have Ancestry.


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:51 pm 
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The e mail from the British Library


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:06 pm 
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Initial attempts to see who got hold of the Seal .Details below.

Miss Daisy Bawden – Died at 14 Rossiter Road Lancing Sussex .Lived next door to my Grandmother and Grandfather at no 12.She was a schoolteacher and never married.
Her Father was Captain Arthur Richard Phipps Bawden died 1937 born 14 Aug 1853 Captain in 1904 and retired in 1910
Her mother Mrs Lily Bawden died 1940 born 1865
Married 1885 Camberwell London Maiden name Lily Dathan
Dathan is quite a rare name and I believe that if you then go back the relative we are looking for is Commander James Hartley Dathan who married Ann (Nee Gilley ) in 1776 .Hence the later name of Joseph Gilley Dathan the son born 18 Apr 1863 in Portsea /Portsmouth. Died 11 Oct 1900 Portsmouth

Bawden - Charles Bawden and a later Horatio Nelson ?

Charles Bawden was appointed to the Sloop Driver in 1848 .This Sloop was wrecked in 1861 Driver, 1840
Type: 1st class sloop ; Armament 4 (2 x 68-pdrs, ; 2 x 34-pdrs)
Launched : 24 Dec 1840 ; Disposal date or year : Aug 1861
Disposal Details : Wrecked on Mariguana Isle ; Com. Horatio Nelson


Driver, 1840
Type: 1st class sloop ; Armament 4 (2 x 68-pdrs, ; 2 x 34-pdrs)
Launched : 24 Dec 1840 ; Disposal date or year : Aug 1861
Disposal Details : Wrecked on Mariguana Isle ; Com. Horatio Nelson


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:13 pm 
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An original envelope from 1909 . Posted from Sheerness by her mother or father .This lady kept everything and she collected stamps and postcards.


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:19 pm 
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This is the life of James Hartley Dathan . Very interesting

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Naval_ ... es_Hartley


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:03 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
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Location: mid-Wales
Thank you so much for posting these interesting details and welcome to the forum! I think even Mark, our resident arch sceptic, :wink: will agree that this is the most fascinating item!

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Anna


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:08 am 
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Thanks Anna . I would love to find out more about who tore the seal off the original envelope. Dathan worked for the Impress Office .This was set up to organise the Press Gangs and was office based in Hartlepool and London .


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:27 am 
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Hi Anna. Oh dear this reputation of mine. LOL! :)

On this particular matter I have to say that I am absolutely intrigued. Mainly because I can't recall ever seeing an example of this seal before.

I am certain that it is the genuine article - but I am sure I have never seen any reference to the seal in any biography of Nelson or Emma.

I anyone knows different please say.

It won't surprise you that I did a bit of "looking around" and I attach an extract from a letter that Nelson wrote to Emma from the Victory on May 27th 1804. From the wording it looks almost certain that Emma's previous letter was the first time she had used the seal.

Mark

PS There is something "so Emma" about it. LOL!
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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Hi Mark

What I forgot to mention was that Miss Bawden had to go into a nursing home and so she had to clear the whole house . This was late 60 s . My Grandad was told to burn loads of envelopes on the bonfire .A local dealer cleared the whole house for £250 and must have got swords , uniforms etc . My cousin was given a preserved south sea island turtle. When my dad died in 2007 I found a small collection of postcards that then gave me the starting point to do the background research.
Thanks for the info about the Nelson letter . Its strange to think that Emma sealed that letter and only a few other people have touched it since . The pill box its in was used to dispense tablets in Victorian times . Its never been lifted out as its obviously brittle .


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:43 pm 
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Steve I do agree as you say that with an item like this you are almost touching history itself.

I've been trying to decide in my own mind whether Emma would have had the seal commissioned herself or actually bought it "off the shelf." For some reason I think it might be the latter. But I don't think either way it matters a jot. It is the fact that she owned it and used it on letters to the very man it commemorated that is so poignant.

That's a few random thoughts from me anyway. Feel free to take them or leave them.


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Thanks Mark . I love the way in that same letter that he is worried about Horatia and the netting round the pond . I did spot that letter once but never really clocked that it was the first time she had used it . So that's it then I reckon .It pretty much dates the seal from that date . Nelson would have destroyed all her letters as agreed but we don't know how he destroyed them and what he would have done with the envelopes. Either a Bawden or a Dathan would have in the same way that someone collects stamps have realised that the seal was worth keeping in the family.Any ideas on how anyone thinks the seal was obtained would be interesting.
Commander James Hartley Dathan who was on Miss Bawdens mothers side has all this information .

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Naval_ ... es_Hartley


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:46 pm 
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Bawden Bay and Clifford Point

http://apps.gov.bc.ca/pub/bcgnws/names/9711.html


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 Post subject: Re: Lady Hamiltons Seal
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:54 am 
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Steve

Your question about envelopes raises another indirect question. i.e. how often were envelopes actually used in this period. Some letters I have had my hands on were just folded (twice I think) and sealed. And then the address written on the outside. I don't know if this was the exception or the rule. Maybe somebody else would care to comment on that.

Mark

PS This comment from Wikipedia explains why envelopes were not universally used in Nelson's time.

"Prior to 1845, hand-made envelopes were all that were available for use, both commercial and domestic. In 1845, Edwin Hill and Warren De La Rue were granted a British patent for the first envelope-making machine."


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