Nelson & His World

Has anyone else spotted the extraordinary item that is currently being offered for sake by an American dealer in Cincinatti, Cowans?

They are claiming that it is one of the flags carried at Nelson's Funeral - but I reckon it has question marks all over it. Have a look and see what you think!

http://www.cowanauctions.com/upcoming_dates_view_item.asp?ItemId=61123&AuctionName

If that does not work as a hotlink, a simple Google search on Cowans + Nelson + Flag will get you to the right page.

Enjoy!

Thanks Boreas, for this evening's entertainment! Extraordinary is the word, but as the auction house is suggesting an estimate of $3,000 to $5,000 I had better try to be serious, but it does look a bit like something done with a child's stencil set. How do you know if the Union Jack in the canton is the right way up?

I thought the flags used at Nelson's funeral were the actual ensigns from the Victory, riddled with shot holes? I would expect to see a flag with a fairly loose weave and hand sown from widths of bunting - about 9 inches wide if I remember rightly the information I have been given before. I also imagine the Victory's battle ensigns would have been somewhat larger.

And who was John Cline/Clyne? I thought the Victory's master was Thomas Atkinson.

This may possibly be an early White Ensign - the NMM has, I believe, some early examples of flags which are crudely made, possibly sewn onboard ship. However, the supposed link to Victory and Trafalgar seems to be very weak. An exchange of letters from the 1890s and family tradition prove absolutely nothing.

The biggest problem is that John Clyne/Cline was certainly not the Master of the Victory. Indeed, a check of the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll reveals only two Cline/Clynes present at the battle - a Daniel Clyne, able seaman, HMS Mars and George Clines, marine, HMS Royal Sovereign.

The ensign would seem to have fake written all over it, I can't say about the letters. I think what was the clincher for me was in the title, where it says that it was 'printed' - I'm not sure this techique was around in those days. Naval flags were sewn in widths, as Tony suggests, and most were made at the colour loft in Chatham Dockyard, which closed only fairly recently. As far as I understand it the flags for the 'Victory' were also made here. Modern naval flags are still sewn, even though they are made of polyester these days, flag firms referring to them as being 'Admiralty' or 'M.O.D' approved. As has been said, the flag would also seem rather small for a ship the size of the 'Victory'.

The St Patrick's cross on the Union in the canton is also incorrect, since it shouldn't be in the centre of the white St Andrew's cross. It is deflected to one side or the other, a broad white stripe being at the top of the arm next to the hoist (that, apart from the clips, toggle, etc., is how you know which way to fly it).

As I said I can't say anything about the letters but, as with many of these items which come up for auction and lovingly passed down through families, it would seem to be a case of believing what is told them by their forebears without delving too deeply into the article's provenance.

Kester

I think Kester has hit the nail on the head - clearly this was 'concocted' a long time ago and the family have gone along with it.

I think, between us, we've picked up the main points
1. There was no Cline or Clyne in the VICTORY
2. The size and design of flag are wrong
3. The design of the Union flag is wrong

Two other things I spotted:

1. The minsicule size of the 'missing' bit! I must have seen at least 5 or 6 pieces of torn flag in various collections, all of which come from good sources and, if you put those together there would be at least a quarter of the flag missing (and there are many other fragments out ther!)]

2. Many of the contemporary accounts I have seen say that the flags were 'shot-torn' and 'blood-stained'. Surprising really that whoever put together this con orginally failed to note that!

A classic case of caveat emptor I think!!

PhiloN, I am interested in your suggestion that this could be an early White Ensign, and presumably the auction house is also satisfied it might date from the right period. I have also seen reference to flags with printed or stencilled designs, although not specifically Royal Navy flags. But if you zoom in on the first image on the auction website using the controls, it looks to me as though the flag is made from one single piece of material - particlularly if you zoom in and drag the image around to follow down the frayed edges on both the right and left, there is no sign of a sewn seam anywhere that I can see. Were flags of this period sometimes made from a single piece of material?

For comparison you can see a piece of flag believed to be from Nelson's funeral at the NMM here

Boreas, would you like to share the question marks you saw? - Edit: Oops, I see you posted your answer seconds before I posed the question! Thanks.

For another comparison, here is the Minotaur's Union Flag from Trafalgar brought back in 1806 by Master's Mate Stephen Hilton:


It is hard to see in the photo, but the design is sewn from seperate red and white strips of material.

Kester, you will see that the St Patrick's cross is still not positioned perfectly in the Minotaur's flag, although it is very much better than the ensign up for auction.

By the way, the Minotaur's flag, having hung in Selling parish church for many years, is now looking both for a new home and for funding for restoration. If anyone has any suggestions, I would be very pleased to pass them on.

I said that it could possibly be an early ensign, because of the inaccuracy in the Union Flag.

However, I missed the point that it is apparently printed cotton. This would suggest that it is not genuine - the Navy only ever used bunting, not cotton, and were sewn not printed.

I would also agree that the size is wrong - flags and ensigns were (are) measured in 'breadths', the width of a strip of bunting. The width I understand has varied somewhat over the years, but at this time would have been around 9 inches, and this does not fit with the size of the ensign quoted by the auctioneers.

I am happy to agree that this is not genuine - and is one of those cases where 'family tradition' has led people astray.

We seem to be finding more and more reasons for thinking the white ensign is a fake.

Boreas,

Your point about the 'miniscule bit' missing I had actually thought about, but didn't mention, in my earler post. I think you're right, all the known pieces of the flag in various places would account for a far larger area then shown here.

Tony,

The Minotaur's union flag looks, and obviously is, the real thing. Presumably there is some form of provenance with it - from Master's Mate Hilton? As regards the St. Patrick's Cross, it doesn't look that far out to me. (Incidentally the crosses were formed this way so that both the St. Patrick's cross and that of St. Andrew would have equal prominence - something I believe called the 'counterchange of saltires'!) One can also see that the flag is sewn. About the flag's needing a new home, have you actually thought of the good old NMM? They have a quite a large collection of flags, but I would have thought they'd certainly be interested in one with this history. They also have expert restorers and conservationists. There is also the Royal Naval Museum at Portsmouth. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know why Selling church wants to part with it?

Kester

I'm afraid I can't possibly add to all the wonderful expertise here, but Tony, Kester's thought about the NMM being a fine home for the Minotaur flag might be particularly special. Bearing in mind that Mansfield's sword is already resident there.

Is the NMM (or other museums come to that) in possession of other Minotaur/Mansfield relics?

I have to emphasise that as regards the Minotaur's flag, I am no more than a (very) interested bystander, but I am in touch with a member of the Nelson Society who is leading the search for funding and somewhere for it to go on display. There are two flags, the second was believed to be the ensign of the captured Spanish Neptuno, but as it is actually an Austrian Ensign, the theory voiced by several people of the years is that Stephen Hilton grabbed the wrong flag out of the flag locker - the Spanish and Austrian ensigns being quite similar. I think Selling Church have decided that the flags are too valuable for the originals to remain on display in the Church, and need to be preserved by experts. There were thoughts of having replicas made. The flags are already in the hands of a conservationist, but with no funds for restoration yet.

As regards provenance, Kester, the Hilton family still live in the same house in Selling as they did in 1805, and there is documentation still in the family, which I haven't seen myself. I suspect it may not necessarily include a signed affidavit of the flag's authenticity by Stephen Hilton himself - things aren't often that simple! Or maybe it does - being young at the time of Trafalgar, he lived until 1872. Interestingly, he christened one of his daughters Victoria Minotaur Hilton - not the most flattering name for a girl, but it illustrates the influence that Trafalgar had on the lives of participants.

The NMM and the Royal Naval Museum are both obvious possibilities, thanks. I think first thoughts have been towards somewhere more local to Selling or to the Medway, but I know one possibility has fallen through.

Captain Mansfield also lived in Kent at West Malling and at Rochester, and there seem to be strong links with the Hilton family as more than one Hilton brother served under Mansfield in different ships over several years.

Yes Mira, Mansfield's Trafalgar sword and gold medal are on loan to the NMM. I am not aware of any other museums with Minotaur/Mansfield relics, other than one or two medals, and of course Admiralty documents and a handful of other letters. I think the RNM have a NGS medal and Trafalgar clasp to someone in the Minotaur, and the Chatham Dockyard Historical Trust have the Boulton Trafalgar medal inscribed to the gunner of the Minotaur.

Tony,

Thanks for your reply to my query.

Kester

The 1805 Club's newsletter reports that sale of the printed cotton flag at Cowan's Auctions closed at $1,500. As always, the newsletter includes the lot description without additional comment, so the naming of John Cline as sailing master of the Victory goes unchallenged.

The auctioneer's website reports the price realised as $7,475 including the buyer's premium. Either the premium must be rather large, or the newsletter is in error!