Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Tue May 14, 2024 9:24 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: H.M.S. Ganges
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
I am opening this thread so we can look at the history of this former Royal Navy Training Establishment in Suffolk.

Its roots go way back to the days of "fighting sail".

Hopefully we can share some of the experiences of forum member Philo Nauticus who is an ex-Ganges boy.

As a taster here is the history web page on the H.M.S. Ganges Association. web site.

Click on the pictures for a wealth of detailed information.

http://www.hmsgangesassoc.org/history

One initial question I have P-N. Do you recall the bell from the San Josef, captured at Cape St Vincent, being located at H.M.S. Ganges? I definitely read this some while back. If correct I wonder why it was there in the first place?

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
You asked " One initial question I have P-N. Do you recall the bell from the San Josef, captured at Cape St Vincent, being located at H.M.S. Ganges? I definitely read this some while back. If correct I wonder why it was there in the first place? "

I have to say, that i cannot recall it. But as a 15 yr old, it may have passed me by...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
Hopefully we can share some of the experiences of forum member Philo Nauticus who is an ex-Ganges boy.

Hmmmm....

Well ... I joined Ganges straight from school at 15, having signed on for 9 years (well actually, 12 – it was 9 years ‘mans time’, i.e. over the age of 18 ).

Initial memories are of arriving at Ipswich station, with dozens of other boys, and being herded out to buses to be taken to Shotley, the site being dominated by the mast. You were not allowed into the main establishment for the first month, being housed in what was called ‘the annex’. Those four weeks were the crucial ones actually. You were kept occupied every minute of the day, being issued with kit / instructed how to wear the uniform / how to look after it / taught how to march and salute etc. You discovered that you were not really on land, but on a ship, as that stretch of road was a quarterdeck, which you saluted should you pass along it (at the double); if you were to leave the establishment you were going ashore. You also had to learn a new language - you were not late, you were ‘adrift’ – you did not wash your clothes you ‘dhobied’ them – you would eat strange food, such as ‘train smash’, ‘Spithead pheasant’, ‘babies heads’ or ‘sh*t – on – a raft’.

Sport was compulsory and plentiful, you were expected to take part in everything – I almost got brained during an over enthusiastic hockey match – but it did save me from the compulsory boxing.

One of the last things you did at the annex, before being moved to the main establishment was to climb the mast – also compulsory. Marched across en masse, you climbed, not to the cap, but to the topmast. I would think that a modern health and safety person would faint at the sight of 50 boys clambering up the rigging, with no safety harnesses or clips, just using hands and feet.

You were allocated to a division, all named after Naval Heroes, so there were Benbows, Blakes, Rodneys etc – I was a Collingwood. The large drill hall was Nelson Hall, and I remember the walls being covered in ships badges, and photo’s of ships and actions in the 2nd world war. Of course all of this was to encourage and inspire you – as was Kipling’s poem ‘If’, which was written in large letters on the walls of the gym, which you saw every day. It was to pass on the message that you were now part of an organisation that had long tradition, which you were expected to maintain and live up to; you were being looked at, not just by your instructor, but by all those long dead naval heroes.

The discipline was strict, but never, I think, harsh. If you did not get out of bed instantly on being called in the morning, then you were liable to have the bed tipped over, with you still in it...you were paraded and inspected regularly, and if the slightest fault found, given a public telling off...the physical training instructors (PTIs) seemed to delight in picking out anyone who was not quite as agile or able as the rest and loudly informing the whole gym how useless you were...indeed you were almost certainly a muppet (most useless person pusser ever trained)...when drilling, if your class had not been as smart as the instructor thought they should be, then a few circuits of the parade ground ‘at the double’ was ordered... messes were regularly inspected, and your locker and bed had to be in perfect order – if it was not, then your kit could be dumped on the floor, or you could get a full kit muster – laying out every item of kit on the messdeck floor, in regimented order, so that it could be inspected.

If you could not swim when you arrived, then were classed as a ‘backward swimmer’ and had to rise at 05.30 and spend an hour in the pool being shouted at by PTIs (and prodded with long poles if you tried to get to the sides...)

Every day was fully occupied – after breakfast, it was ‘divisions’ (parade) for inspection and then doubled off to classes which lasted until 16.00; you then ‘shifted clothes’ and paraded again, in sports kit for ‘dog-watch sports’ for two hours; ‘shifted clothes’ again for supper, after which it was usually in the messdeck preparing uniform for the next day, with lights out at 22.00.

Just before every weekend it was ‘Friday night routine’, when dog watch sports may be given over to frantic cleaning and polishing of the mess – I remember being on hands and knees with a shoe brush, polishing a wooden floor ... Because Saturday was Captain’s Rounds, and there was a great competition to be judged the ‘best mess’.

The formal punishments – usually for variations of failing to do something - followed the usual naval routine of extra work or drill. During my time there was still corporal punishment. The ‘cuts’ were 12 strokes of a cane delivered by the Master at Arms or one of his patrolmen. This however was only for serious crimes, such as stealing or attempting to ‘run’.

It did leave its mark on me - I still like to iron my own shirts (my wife does not object!) and I feel guilty if my shoes are not regularly polished.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:16 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Many thanks, P-N, for that most interesting post.

When a boy joined Ganges, was that it? If, for example, you came to the conclusion during this training period that a sailor's life was not for you, was there any way out, or were you there for the period you'd initially signed up for?

Were 'classes' purely related to seamanship, or were other usual school subjects - history, maths, English etc. included?

A 'local lad' we know down here who is now a Rear Admiral, said that on his rare visits to Dartmouth where he was a cadet, and had similar experiences to yours in Ganges, he always felt very uneasy, expecting to be told any minute to do everything 'at the double'.

_________________
Anna


Last edited by tycho on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Thanks PN

A REALLY FASCINATING INSIGHT!

Quote:
I feel guilty if my shoes are not regularly polished.


One thing my father drummed into me is that you are not properly dressed unless the soles of your shoes under the instep are polished. I can't say I still follow that religiously - but I get a pang of conscience if I don't.

Here is a picture of Nelson Hall as referred to.

Image

The photographs the boys are looking at are doubtless the ones you refer to. I can't see any sign of that San Josef bell - but it could be there somewhere. I will try to look into that story a bit further.

Thanks again.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Aha! - I found the original reference to the San Josef bell.

It is in the book "St Vincent & Camperdown" by Christopher Lloyd.

Quote:
The bell of the San Josef is now hung at the Navy's training establishment H.M.S. Ganges . . . . .


Maybe one day we can find confirmation and some idea as to how it found its way there.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
When a boy joined Ganges, was that it? If, for example, you came to the conclusion during this training period that a sailor's life was not for you, was there any way out, or were you there for the period you'd initially signed up for?

That was it! You were expected to serve out your time; you could "work your ticket", which some did try. This was to be such a pain in the backside, and fail everything, so that you would get thrown out, but it was it was generally reckoned that you would have to be desperate to do that. Certainly at Ganges, if you failed some test or other, you just got 'back-classed' - put back to the next recruitment, thereby extending your time in the place.


Were 'classes' purely related to seamanship, or were other usual school subjects - history, maths, English etc. included?


You were taught seamanship, plus the basics of your chosen branch (communications / gunner / mechanical engineer / cook / etc.) and yes, the school subjects of history, maths and english were also taught.

Before you left you would take the educational tests, known in my day as ETAB and ETLR (educational test for Able Seaman and Leading Rate). These were in maths and english, and required you to achieve certain standards in each subject.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
Re: the St Josef Bell. It would now seem to be in the National Maritime Museum.

See:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson ... =2#content


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:30 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
More questions, I'm afraid, P-N.

How long was the training period at (in?) Ganges?

Did leavers (survivors!) then go directly to a ship, or were there other, perhaps shore-based, options on offer?

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 168
Location: Woodbridge
Anna

How long was the training period at (in?) Ganges?

The training was for one year


Did leavers (survivors!) then go directly to a ship, or were there other, perhaps shore-based, options on offer?

No, not to a ship. On leaving Ganges one would be sent to another training establishment, to spend another three to six months, of specialist training. So Gunners went to 'Excellent', TAS (torpedo/anti-sub.) to 'Vernon', Communicators to 'Mercury', electricians to 'Collingwood', engineers to 'Sultan' and the S & S (stores & supply + cooks) to 'Pembroke'.

On completion of this training you would be liable to be drafted to sea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:44 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
Thanks again, P-N. great posts!

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:17 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2830
Location: mid-Wales
P-N:

I forgot to ask about climbing the rigging! In Nelson's day, the youngsters just had to manage for themselves if Lady Hughes' account is anything to go by. Nelson's kindness in accompanying his young charges was unusual.

I recall seeing on TV some years ago boys from a naval establishment - it might have been Ganges - giving a demonstration when they all climbed step by step in exactly choreographed unison, a procedure that must have been rehearsed many times until it was perfect.

So how did they go about preparing you? Were there tips like, 'Don't look down?'

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 1376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Anna,

Not wanting to pre-empt anything that PN might say, I'll hazard a guess that this may have been the only such mast around when he was in the RN! (apart from the Victory that is). However, I stand to be corrected!

I know that on board the civilian sail training ships I have sailed in there were, and are, 'rules':

a) Don't go aloft with anything that might get caught on the rigging, such as things dangling around the neck, and any rings or jewellery which could snag on the rigging. Similarly, make sure that your safety harness (which is obligatory these days) has no loose rope ends, or loops sticking out, which could also get caught.

b) Wear suitable footwear, with a good sole, not worn smooth. It was also helpful to have a definite heel, which comes up against the ratlines (the thinner lines crossing the shrouds for climbing.)

c) Always climb the shrouds on the windward side, since the wind tends to push you onto the rigging and not away from it and which may perhaps cause you to loose your grip. (This was important, especially as the wind usually becomes stronger the nearer the top of the mast. It also made for easier climbing, since with the ship's heel, the windward shrouds are at less of an angle. It was also a good idea to climb the futtock shrouds, between the lower shrouds and the edge of the top and which are angled backwards, when the ship rolled away from you, since they become more vertical.)

c) Always hold onto the shrouds, never the ratlines. The latter, being much thinner, often part with wear and might do so unexpectedly under your weight. (The shrouds are much less likely to do this!)

d) Don't move more than two limbs at a time (obviously an arm and a leg!) so as to keep as many points of contact with the rigging as possible.

e) When you have reached a point from where you are going to move horizontally, eg. out onto a yard, clip on with the carabiner on the end of the rope on your harness. (There was often a line running behind the yard for especially this, or clip onto the jackstay on top of the yard.)

f) When climbing out onto the footrope of a yard, warn any other crew member already on the footrope that you are about to do so, usually by saying (or sometimes shouting): 'stepping on port' (or 'starboard') as the case may be. This was because the footrope will tighten under the extra weight and thus affect every one on it!

g) As you say Anna, you are usually advised not to look down, but rather upward to where you are going and to look for the next hand or foot hold. (Usually it's the first timers that keep looking down, but that often tends to 'freeze' some to the rigging, when they get apprehensive and they can move neither up or down. I have sometimes seen a couple of the crew go aloft to get trainees down but these same trainees have, by the end of the cruise, become used to climbing the masts like the others through the use gentle persuasion and help from the crew.)

Obviously, some of this wouldn't apply in our period, e.g. the safety harnesses, but some of the others would have held good. I did find something about the proceedures for mast climbing in RN ships somewhere. I'll see if I can find it!

_________________
Kester.


Last edited by Devenish on Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
This is a bit sad - but here is a web site showing the sorry state of the Ganges site (2006, but I believe still much the same today)

http://www.derelicte.co.uk/hms-ganges

I see the swimming pool is still there - although it looks like it would need an M.P. to put in an expense claim to give it a cleaning.

There are many, many comments down the page from former Ganges trainees.

How VERY interesting that in the 4th comment there is mention of those dreaded POLES used by the PTI's. It is the abiding memory I have of my brief visits there - and also recalled by P-N above.

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 1088
Phew!

I wondered EXACTLY how the button boy made his final ascent.

These photos show in graphic detail.

MAXIMUM RESPECT!!

Image

MB


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group