Nelson-Wellington Meeting

tycho · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:40 pm

I've always thought the account of the meeting between Nelson and Wellington to be a little odd.

Apparently, according to John Wilson Croker's account, Nelson was readily identified by the Duke, then Sir Arthur Wellesley, though he said that Nelson 'could not know who I was'. Nelson behaved in a ridiculous fashion, talking 'in a style so vain and silly as to surprise and disgust me.' Nelson then 'went out of the room, no doubt to ask the office keeper who I was, for when he came back, he was a different man, both in manner and matter.'

Is it conceivable that two gentlemen at that time, meeting in the Colonial Office, would enter into conversation without introducing themselves? It goes against every rule of the established etiquette of the period.

Since Lord Nelson, with his missing arm, was instantly recognisable, any gentleman meeting him without a third party to introduce them to each other would almost without question have said,'Do I have the honour of addressing Lord Nelson?' And on receiving a yes, would then say,'Allow me to introduce myself: Arthur Wellesley at your service, Sir.'

Nelson might well have made a bad first impression which was corrected as the conversation progressed; but the idea of Nelson breaking off in mid-conversation to find out the name of the man he was in the midst of conversing with, seems very strange to me.

Devenish · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:46 pm

Anna,

I agree, I don't think two gentlemen would normally have begun a conversation without having first introduced themselves, especially as they must have surmised that they were both there for an important meeting.

It is rather strange, too, that Wellesley had the idea that Nelson 'could not know who I was'. However, if he did say that, then I think it says something about the man himself! I would imagine that by this stage in his career, September 1805 I think, Nelson would have known – or at least known of – the more senior officers of the army. His ships often transported them after all! In the well-known painting they are of course shown in uniform, but I don't know if they were in reality. Nelson probably was, I think he was seldom out of it, but even if he had not been Wellesley would surely have known him by his one arm and demeanour. Nelson may not have been so sure of Wellesley, but perhaps one possibility is that, if the incident was as given by Croker, Nelson may have had a fairly good idea as to whom he was addressing, but went out of the room to have his impression confirmed since Wellesley didn't choose to 'open up'!

Incidentally I have seen this conversation in a publication but which completely left out the second half of it, the bit where Nelson came back into the room, was seemingly a 'changed' person, and Wellesley then made his famous remark – which was surely the whole point of the anecdote!

Tony · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:31 pm

Croker’s diary entry for his conversation with the Duke of Wellington is dated 1st October 1834, so the account is a recollection some considerable time after the meeting.

There was another version of the meeting published in the Edinburgh Review (and elsewhere) in 1838. The source seems to be Colonel Gurwood, who compiled Wellington’s dispatches (and who at some time purchased a portrait of Nelson on Wellesley’s behalf). In this account there is no mention of Wellesley’s initial unfavourable impression, but again Nelson does engage in conversation without knowing who he is talking to. The topic of conversation (not mentioned in Croker’s account) was Sir Robert Calder’s action, and the remark that prompted Nelson to leave the room to discover Wellesley’s identity was “This measure of success won’t do nowadays—for your Lordship has taught the public to expect something more brilliant”. The two accounts are very different, but the one thing on which they do agree is that that Nelson had to leave the room to find out who Wellesley was

Quote:

Having here incidentally mentioned the Duke of Wellington and Nelson together, it may not be uninteresting to our readers to learn that they met once, and but once, and then by mere accident. The Duke, then Sir Arthur Wellesley, had just returned from his ever memorable campaign in India; but his fame, though high amongst all those who knew any thing of the concerns of that remote region, had not yet become so familiar to the mass of society at home as to render it profitable to the print-sellers and tavern-keepers to exhibit his physiognomy to the public gaze. Consequently, the features, now so familiar to all, were then so little known—even to Nelson—that, when he found himself one day in the waiting- room of one of the Secretaries of State in company with the great Eastern warrior, he knew him not. It was otherwise with Nelson, whose deeds having been performed nearer home, were far better, or, at all events, more generally known; and with whose appearance Sir Arthur could not but be well acquainted, even had he had no other help than the signs over the inn doors on his way from Portsmouth. The natural attraction of genius drew them together—and the Minister whose leisure they were waiting for, being long engaged, these two illustrious men were left in conversation for some time. The news of Sir Robert Calder's action had just been received, and this naturally formed a principal topic of their discourse. Sir Arthur Wellesley said to Lord Nelson—' This measure of success ' won't do nowadays—for your Lordship has taught the public ' to expect something more brilliant.' Shortly after this remark, Lord Nelson left the waiting-room, evidently to find out who his new friend was, and, returning in a minute, renewed the conversation on a fresh footing. Nelson had at that time some project for occupying Sardinia, and he wished Sir Arthur to take charge of the troops on the occasion. But he replied that he would rather not—that he had just returned from India —in short, he did not enter into that view. Soon afterwards Lord Nelson sailed—the battle of Trafalgar was fought—and they never met again.

How gratifying and instructive would it not be if we could obtain an account of the whole of the conversation of which we have gathered merely the above small, but authentic, particulars! And here it is impossible not to lament over the vast mass of valuable and interesting information which must always perish with such characters as Nelson and Wellington. What, indeed, would we not give for a faithful transcript of such men's Diaries! Thanks to Colonel Gurwood, we do possess a good deal; but how much more might we not possess, if the indefatigable compiler had enjoyed the same access to the private, as he has had to the public treasures of his great master?

Perhaps Nelson wasn’t one always to follow established etiquette? - he opened the conversation according to Croker. And Wellesley, being so opposite in character, and having the advantage over him, perhaps enjoyed leading him on?

tycho · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:28 pm

Many thanks for that account, Tony; much more credible than Croker's.

I'm still not convinced, though, that these two men didn't introduce themselves at the beginning. In an age of extreme formality there were very strict rules about introductions. These were usually performed by a third party; if there wasn't one, then one or other would ask whom he had the honour of addressing. [Alexander Pope composed a couplet for the Prince of Wales' dog's collar which observed the conventions even in the animal world: 'I am His Highness' dog at Kew. Pray tell me, Sir, whose dog are you?]

Mutual introductions at the Colonial Office where both men were clearly gentlemen and had specific business would be acceptable. An inferior would never presume to introduce himself to a superior. Introducing oneself to a complete stranger on unfamiliar territory was fraught with difficulties for an Englishman - even far into the Victorian era as this amusing ditty by W.S. Gilbert attests.

http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/etiquette.html

No: I reckon Nelson and Wellington made themselves known to each other when they met. I expect Nelson popped out to the loo!

Stephenph · **Joined:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:52 pm **Posts:** 1

Anna,
I've just discovered your post. I wrote a play for Radio 4 in 203 about it called "The Captains and the Kings depart "( From Kipling's superb poem, "Recessional").

What puzzled me was what did this two amazing military geniuses discuss ? "The most interesting conversation of my life!" Wellington is reported to have said.
Their two characters are so different. Wellesley, the the youngest Major General in the British Army, and freshly returned from his victories in India, especially Assaye!

Nelson had been there for a ten o'clock appointment with Castlereagh that was delayed
and Wellington arrives, brisk brusque, impatient. My play had Nelson reading a newspaper, perhaps the Times of the September 1805 ( it was founded in 1785!), so his face may have been hidden, when this ( to him !) young "whipper snapper" marches in expecting to be lead into his meeting with Castlereagh promptly, and the n discovering that he is in a queue and will have to wait at least an hour.

His assurance and confidence ( and perhaps rudeness?), impressed Nelson who obviously asked of the Porter or Assistant Secretary, who was this fiery young man, and would have read about his success.

So THAT is the perfect setting for this incredible discussion , the true nature of which, we will never know!
But we cab speculate......
They must have discussed leadership, tactics of war, how to handle men in a war zone, etc.
I like to think that Nelson and Wellington both agreed on the value of surprise. Both the Indian victories of Wellington and the victory of Nelson in three of his sea battles. prove that these men were not ditherers ) like General Haig and Rawlinson , perhaps?).
Did they discuss earlier British leaders, Edward III at Azincourt or the Black Prince at Poitiers? Both studied warfare and no doubt read about it.

My play tried to tackle this, and I was greatly chuffed when I sent it to Colin White , Chairman of the Nelson Society, and Director of the Royal Naval Museum at Portsmouth, to ask a few technical queries, like who exactly stood around Nelson on the Victory during his painful and prolonged death.
Colin said he thoroughly enjoyed it and was surprised by the depth on my research and wished me luck.

So I hope this helps.
If you have n't done it, go and see their tombs in the vaults of St Pauls Cathedral where they lie, twelve feet apart. It was rather spooky when a guide asked you if you knew these two heroes met only once, and then by accident, and he says the exact words I had written a week earlier!
I had written to both Tom Stppard and Christopher Hampton to write the play, but both were too busy on other projects and Hampton suggested I have a stab at it myself !

Regards,
Stephen. :wink:

tycho · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:10 am

Stephen,

Welcome to the forum and many thanks for that interesting post!

I was fascinated to hear of your play and full of regrets that I didn't hear it. Your resolution of the problem by having Nelson concealed behind a copy of The Times is inspired and convincing - Nelson was an avid devourer of newspapers and once sent a poignant little note to Emma in which he said how much he missed their friendly squabbles over who should have the newspaper first!

And what a pity that this 'most fascinating conversation of Wellington's life' has left no trace, other than the mention of Sir Robert Calder and his inconclusive action. Even that very engaging book 'Conversations with Wellington' by Earl Stanhope makes no mention of Nelson apart from a note that he attended Nelson's funeral. (Well worth a read, though, and might well provide material for another play - have a look at www.abebooks.co.uk. The conversations have been recently reprinted and I got mine for under a fiver.)

Is your script still available? If so, I'd love to read it.

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Nelson-Wellington Meeting

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