Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: Trafalgar flag for auction
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:51 am 
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Union flag flown onboard the SPARTIATE is up for auction.

See:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 65456.ece#

Apparently kept in the Clephan family from Lieut.James Clephan


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:21 am 
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Many thanks for the link, PN.

How evocative these frail remnants are! I was spellbound by the Trafalgar sail on display in the Royal Historic Dockyard, firstly, by its enormous size, and also by the rents and tears from the battle.

Another Trafalgar relic which gave me a frisson when I was allowed to hold it, was a book, now in the hands of a descendant of a Trafalgar captain, with other valuable Nelsonian relics. The book is damaged at the top, and on the front end-paper is written: This book was shivered by shot when the bookcase in which it was standing was struck at the battle off Cape Trafalgar, 21 October 1805. I was so overcome, I forgot to look at the title of the book.

I can't reveal the name of the owner on a public website as I promised not to; but it was a huge privilege to see several authentic relics of the battle.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:04 am 
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Just noticed the Times 'howler' - there's usually one in most Nelson stories: remember 'Hardy VC'?

I've just re-read the story in my copy of the Times:

'.....the Spartiate which had been captured from the French at the battle of the Nile and was the ship from which the shot that blinded Nelson in his right eye had been fired.'

Though Nelson received a head wound above his right eye at the Nile, he was blinded in his right eye earlier, in 1794, in a land action.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:31 am 
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Anna,

Well its a good story, and they are trying to sell newspapers!

Actually, if it is a Union Jack, I doubt it was flown from the jackstay since this would have been unshipped. More likely from either the fore, or main, topgallant stay. I'm not sure that it's the only flag surviving from the battle either.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Devenish wrote:
I'm not sure that it's the only flag surviving from the battle either.

It most certainly is not! The Times headline is absurd. here is the Minotaur's Union Flag from Trafalgar brought back in 1806 by Master's Mate Stephen Hilton:

Image

I believe the Minotaur's flag is to be part of the subject of a lecture at the Nelson Society AGM next week by Judith Doré, an expert in textile conservation.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Tony,

I thought you might reply!

Unfortunately, I shan't be attending the AGM this year to hear Judith Doré's talk, but I did wonder if you knew of it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:38 pm 
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There is a full-page article in the Daily Mail today.

Click here

Attach Nelson's name to a story and the Mail are guaranteed to run with it! :D :D

Unfortunately they repeat the statement that it is the only Union Jack from Trafalgar still in existence.

It gives a potted version of James Clephan's career and I was thinking "WOW! - THAT'S UNUSUAL!" Insomuch as he started as a "pressed man" and rose to the rank of Captain.

In fact - later in the article - this is commented on.

Quote:
It is thought that James Clephan was one of only 16 men in Royal Navy history to have risen to this rank after being press-ganged.


Tony - Any chance you will drop them a line and put them right on their faux pas?

Email is letters@dailymail.co.uk

If you do be sure to give them your credentials and a link to the picture of the Minotaur flag.

MB


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Breaking News! Have just heard it went for 384,000 and to a Private Buyer


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:34 pm 
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A tad more info on the buyer.

Radio 4 reports that the buyer is a US citizen who is keen to work with the British authorities to ensure the flag remains in the UK. That's good news!

The final bill is an eye-popping £384,000 including buyer's premium - a world record for an ensign.

Something quite amazing seems to happen at auctions held around Trafalgar Day.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Who said Nelson's era was dead! Quite incredible. The Daily Mail On-line seems to have good coverage on it, for us living overseas. Now where's that tea cloth with Nelson on it? :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Newspapers this morning reported that Culture Minister Margaret Hodge had said before the sale that she would temporarily ban any export of the flag to give British museums a chance to match the price.

What hope of that now?

Given that the owner lived in Australia, is it correct to talk about retaining the flag in the UK?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:33 pm 
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This is a prime example of 'Does anyone believe what this Government say anymore' With now Gatwick being sold off today, l Fear HMS Victory may be on the list to the highest bidder. Can you imagine France and Spain leading the bidding! Will never trust this Regime after Lockerbie. :evil: :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:59 pm 
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I have just written to the Times On-line section on this matter, anyone want to back me up on this.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:45 am 
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Stephen:

I share your wish to see the flag stay here in the UK and understand totally your passionate concern.

However, sales like this are hugely problematical in that artefacts such as this flag, with all its historical associations, are regarded by many as national treasures; but they are also private property and, in a free society, this raises several questions: such as ‘how far can governments interfere in what is essentially a lawful transaction between buyer and seller?’ Had a UK private resident bought this flag, it could have disappeared into a private collection never to be seen again, and the government could do nothing about it.

If a treasure of national significance is about to be exported, the government can place a temporary ban, as it has suggested it might do in this case, to allow museums to try to raise funds to buy it. If you were the lucky overseas winner of the auction, you might feel rather aggrieved that your right to trade freely in the market place has been interfered with by government officials! Once the export ban is imposed, museums are free to attempt to raise the funds to exceed the auction price, but they have budgets to stick to, and many other demands on their funding. Even if the government stepped in and provided public funds, this might also create a furore in the media about how taxpayers’ money is spent. This ensign is important to us and we would like it to be retained at home now it has come back from Australia; to many other taxpayers, it is just an old flag. Think of the outrage in some parts of the media over subsidies to opera and other cultural funding. Reconciling differing views like these is a perennial problem for all governments of whatever political hue.

In the past, an appeal for financial contributions from the public has been one way of raising funds to keep a treasure here. (I think I mentioned on another thread my contribution of five shillings to keep the Leonardo cartoon in Britain – a bit of a cheek now I think of it. I wonder what the Italians thought of us retaining an Italian work of art here?!!) A public appeal to top up anything in the museums’ budget seems fair enough to me: those of us who care can put our hands in our pockets; others who do not then cannot complain that, as taxpayers, they are being forced to stump up for something which might not be of importance to them.

Now that we have an ‘umbrella’ organisation of Naval Museums, it might be possible for them to pool their reserves, add any funds they can raise by public appeal, with perhaps a little help from government funds that won’t bring the rage of the Philistines upon their heads, and so buy the flag. It could then be displayed in a number of museums in rotation. You may recall that this was the solution to retaining the painting ‘Diana and Actaeon’ when there was fear that it might go abroad when the owner, the Duke of Sutherland, wanted to sell it. He actually sold it to the galleries at much below the potential market price and gave the buyers time to pay. Maybe the owner of the flag, who is said to want to co-operate in allowing the flag to stay here will be similarly generous.

http://www.nationalgalleries.org/media/ ... s_pack.pdf


Or we might ask the bankers of Goldman Sachs, just awarded individual bonuses of £400,000+, to chuck their small change in the hat!

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Anna


Last edited by tycho on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:49 am 
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I've just seen this report in the Times which looks quite hopeful. The new owner 'expects to make an approach to the government soon with a view to displaying the flag somewhere in Britain.'


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 884574.ece

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