Nelson & His World

. . . . now those are words I would like to hear one day!!

Say it was part of our birthright to have 24 hours back on any day in history of our choice . . . . what would be yours?

Come on all you registered members AND visitors - join in on this one.

It may be during the Nelson era - or not.

It may be totally obvious or less so if you prefer.

But think specifically of the little details that you would be looking out for that you always wondered about but thought you would never know. How people talked, how things smelt, how things worked etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I'll start the ball rolling with a bit of an odd one.

The date is 31st August 1802 and Nelson, Emma and SWH are in Birmingham as part of their tour of Wales and the Midlands.

I would love to see how the three of them interacted.

I would love to hear Nelson's accent.

I would love to see Emma at the theatre in an apparently "hyper" state - shouting out, clapping her hands, and stamping her feet.

I would love to see Nelson standing on the main street and toasting the assembled crowd.

Oh! - and I'd tag along on their visit to Matthew Boulton's (manu)factory - watch the cartwheel pennies beiing stamped out in his mint, and those beautiful ormolu objets d'art being manufactured by outrageously talented artists.

PLEASE . . . I've been ever so good . . . MAKE THIS ONE WISH COME TRUE!!

MB

just while I'm thinking...... could I have a freebie as an extra? Something that might not have happened....

Mr Beechey, the portrait painter, is in his studio and I am appointed his sharpener-of-pencils for the day.

It is 10.59 am. There is a rap at the door and Mr B. glances at his appointments diary for the day:

'11.00 am: Captain Samuel Sutton RN.'

In he walks, and AT LAST, I know what he looks like!

More to come..........

Brief moments are perfectly acceptable as long as that is all you require. (But remember that you are only allowed one trip per lifetime - so all unused time is automatically cancelled)

You are allowed to change history - but you must consider and justify the long-term repercussions of your actions.

MB

Why was Nelson such a great leader? People have tried to analyse it; a couple of business management gurus wrote an interesting book, 'Nelson's Way: leadership lessons from the great commander', in which they list the qualities that made him a great leader - vocation, courage, passion, loyalty, diligence, inspiration, glory.

Some aspects of leadership can be learned or taught. But Nelson had something innate, that cannot be learned or taught. He had 'charisma', a word that can have negative and positive connotations, as I think I have remarked elsewhere. Nelson had 'positive charisma'.

What was it about him that so bound people to him, inspired them, uplifted them? 'To inspire' comes from the Latin word for 'to breathe into', and this, I think, is what Nelson did - his followers seemed to absorb into themselves something of his greatness. I have also quoted before words from a eulogy at the funeral of an inspirational friend of mine, but they are worth repeating here: 'It was not simply what she was, but what you became when you were with her'.

That may have been part of Nelson's charisma, a quality that is impossible to describe; one can only experience it. Of course, many ordinary seamen at Trafalgar had never even seen Nelson, but the magic spread, radiating out from those who did know him at first hand. And that is why I should like to be a ghost in the shadows when Nelson was at his most inspirational. How did he do it? With the words he used, his manner and expression, his ability to connect with individuals, almost certainly, but these are not the whole. You'd have to see it to comprehend it.

Absolutely no question about this one! I need to be present on 29 September 1805 when Nelson briefed his captains:
None of the captains left any record to suggest it really had that effect on them. I need to know whether or not this is just the Nelson spin doctor in action!

Tony:

Blackwood's letter to his wife the day after Trafalgar (Nicolas vii, 225-7) doesn't refer to the Nelson Touch specifically, but he does suggests that Nelson's inspiration was unique, and had a powerful effect on many:

Almost all seemed as if inspired by the one common sentiment of conquer or die...Lord Nelson.... has left cause for every man who had a heart never to forget him...I hope it is not injustice to the second in command...who fought like a hero, to say that the Fleet, under any other, never would have performed what they did under Lord N. But under Lord N. it seemed like inspiration to most of them.'

I really enjoyed the trip to Soho House with Emma, Nelson and SWH. A good choice. I have only just visited Birmingham for the Matthew Boulton exhibitions and thought Soho House one of the most interesting places I have seen for a long time.It is likely that Nelson and Emma saw Matthew Boulton in his bed chamber as he was ill. The visit to the room where the Lunar Society met got me thinking that so many of the people I read about from that era had an eye on the future and seemed to forsee great things and great progress. These days the future often gets pictured as something gloomy and guilt laden. When my time-machine awaits I will be brave and ask for a the future! A tour of all the British Nelson Monuments, just to see if they are still there. I'll go for 2070 I think...a Saturday please.
R1

Meaford's mention of Nelson's visit to Matthew Boulton in Birmingham etc. reminded me of Nelson's visit to South Wales in 1802. Now just about this time, Richard Trevithick was working on his locomotive at Penydarren in the same area.

Supposing he had met Nelson, told him about his engine that moved. Suppose Nelson's penetrating mind had perceived the possibilities for a steam-driven ship.Would the days of fighting sail have ended sooner as a result?

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/PenydarrenLocomotive.htm

Anna,

Even if Nelson hadn't met Trevithick, he might conceivably have heard about him and his locomotive, and he must surely have heard of James Watt and his interest in steam power. So these ideas might have been planted.

However to have taken these thoughts, if he had them, to fruition as a seagoing steamship would have taken some time for various reasons: a) he probably wouldn't have had the time himself (he did have other things on his mind!); b) I imagine there would have been a certain amount of opposition from the Admiralty (there was a war on, and there would have been other considerations); c) Nelson himself wasn't an engineer, so he would have had to interest one, perhaps Trevithick, which again he probably wouldn't have time enough for.

There are probably other points I haven't thought of. So my guess is that, even if all that had happened, the end of the sailing warship may not have been that much shorter. As it was there were plenty of teething problems to overcome. I believe the first operational steam vessel (I stand to be corrected here) was the 'Charlotte Dundas', operating on the Clyde as early as 1812, so not that much later as a viable power source. The first steam (and sail) warships were operating not that long after the end of the Napoleanic Wars.

I was astounded to read in Professor Callender's introduction to the catalogue of the 'Save the Victory' exhibition that my idle supposition that Nelson might have seen or heard of Trevithick's engine was, apparently, true; (though he gives no sources:

'At Merthyr-Tydvil [sic] Nelson saw a railway engine tugging coals in trucks and prophesied that the days of sail were almost ended'.

Does anyone have any confirmation of this assertion?

Get out that frying pan - this is largely fantasy! Nelson may well have appreciated the potential of steam power, and Trevithick had previously built a locomotive, but in 1802 Trevithick's steam engine at Merthyr was a fixed engine. He converted it into a locomotive between autumn 1803 and February 1804. Its first run was on 21 February 1804. Nelson was by then otherwise engaged. Where do these Profs get their ideas?

Tony

Just putting a different spin on this. The wording could in fact mean that it was a static engine pulling the trucks.

There was a pit quite close to where I live here and the trucks of coal were conveyed to the canal along a railway but using a static engine and a continuous loop chain.

If Trevithick had developed that system then Professor Callender could still be technically correct.

It's just a thought off the top of my head - but based on the way the system used to work up here.

MB

I should explain to unregistered readers who do not have access to Inside Nelson's World, that the Forum Frying Pan is an implement with which we belabour (but, this being a friendly forum, only in a loving way) those who write obvious nonsense about Our Hero and his era.

Professor Callender was a naval historian of some repute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Callender

but he appears to have got carried away in his introduction to the Save the Victory catalogue. In addition to his claim about Nelson and the steam engine, he has a comment to make on Nelson's separation from Fanny which I have never read anywhere else. I think it is appropriate to mention it on this thread as it is all about conjecture and supposition as well as fact.

Prof. Callender relates the well-known account of Mr Haslewood, the solicitor, who described Fanny's departure from their lodgings in Arlington Street, wearied by Nelson's constant references to Lady Hamilton. He then continues:

'Returning later to Arlington Street, Nelson found that his wife had dismissed the servants, locked up the house and gone away without leaving an address' which Callender describes as 'warfare of a kind that he did not understand.'

It was this rebuff that caused him to walk through the streets all night, 'sooner than shock public opinion by going to an hotel', and finally end up at the Hamiltons' house.

Are there any other sources for this curious assertion?

Another stange usage is his description of Hardy's deathbed kiss as 'the kiss of peace'. was this a common term for this deathbed ritual, or does it have some religious overtone?

That thought had crossed my mind, Mark, but apparently the engine was driving a forge hammer, and was returned to that use after its trial on the locomotive.

I think Nelson might have been more interested in Sir Thomas Dundas and William Symington's successful trials of steam vessels in Scotland in 1801 and 1803.

Anna, I'm not sure, but I think the 'kiss of peace' is the part of the Catholic Mass where everyone wishes each other 'Peace be with you'. These days, in England anyway, it is usually done with a handshake rather than an actual kiss. I wouldn't have thought there was any specific connection with the traditional farewell kiss to the dead or dying, although the accompanying sentiment would be the same.

Anna,

The Professor Callender quote looks to be a combination of Haslewood's 1846 recollection and James Harrison's 1806 'Life of Nelson.'



The order and wording of this in Harrison's account should date the occurence to the four days leave of absence snatched by Nelson in London before sailing to the Baltic. That came between 24th and 26th February, 1801 (and not before he left London for the first time on 13th January.)

A couple of quick references and a newspaper report to add to the mix:

Very formal 'Yours Truly' Nelson letter to Lady Nelson, dated 21st January from Plymouth Dock. Postscript:

Newspapers report on the 24th January that Lady Nelson has gone to Brighton.

Nelson writes to Alexander Davison on the 25th, angered about tales of him buying a fine house for Lady Nelson. He recommends that when in town, a small rented house or an hotel would be the best accommodation for lady Nelson. Davison refutes the story.

Nelson letter to Emma Hamilton, 25th January. Re-assurances about the house buying reports:

It seems that Nelson was certainly aware by the 24th February that Lady Nelson had (given up the house?), left London and gone to Brighton.

It does seem though, that he may not have known what was happening before 21st January.

Martyn Downer in 'Nelson's Purse' mentions that the Dover Street house was to be given up by 10th February but gives no source for that comment. I'm assuming it came from the tranche of information discovered in the Davison archives and auctioned off in 2001

Susannah Bolton - a highly concerned and unbiased party hoping for a reconciliation between Nelson and Fanny - wrote to Fanny on 8th March:

John Watkins, in his 1814 Memoirs of Lady Hamilton, says that Nelson and Emma concocted the 'Nelson homeless' story between then to inveigle him into Sir William's house. Watkins' sometime informer, Francis Oliver, was obviously on the spot at the time (running confidential messages between Emma and Nelson), but by the time the Memoirs were written neither Oliver nor Watkins could be classed as unbiased. Watkins may equally have taken and twisted the information related in the original Harrison quote. Watkins thoroughly disliked Harrison.

A big palaver over a house does seem to have taken place between January and February 1801. Perhaps this is what Prof. Callender is referring to.

And there's probably more information in other sources to clarify what happened to the house (Dover Street or Arlington Street?) before or after Nelson's departure on 13th January.