Nelson & His World

Further to my question about "Sergeant Armourers" I thought I would spell out all the details of this strange conundrum.

An item in a newspaper article from 1919 includes the following passage:



I looked up the name on the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll and there I found a John Ingram, born in King's Norton with the rank of Sergeant of Marines. (There are 3 other John Ingrams, but just Landsmen/Ord seamen and with no association with the Midlands)

So surely these 2 men are one and the same.

Well unfortunately the ATR reports that their JI had no known injuries and lived on to at least the late 1840's when he was awarded a Naval General Service Medal.

The stories could not be more different!!

I have had the opportunity to look at the book that records the Monumental Inscriptions at King's Norton church and no sign of his name in there.

I know that newspapers often make howlers - but if they are wrong here how could they be so hopelessly wrong - even reporting the location of the house where the man died.

The newspaper quotes that the Ingram family were considerable property owners in the area. So if the report is wrong they have made a mistake about an important local family.

This has left me completely confused.

I will still check out various sources to see if I can find another record of his death - either at the earlier or later date.

Meanwhile if anyone can spot if/where my logic is wrong or can throw any further light I would be most grateful!!

Thanks

MB

There seems no reason to doubt this as this Sergeant John Ingram was on board the frigate Sirius at Trafalgar which, as might be expected, did not report any casualties at all, and he was awarded clasps for other later actions.

Tony

Thanks for your comments here and on the Sergeant Armourer thread.

This is one of the strangest starting points I have had for a piece of research.

I keep veering backwards and forwards as regards what may be right or wrong here.

What I will do is keep picking away at the various issues and hope that a solution will eventually pop out!

I don't have access to Ancestry.com at home but I looked on FreeBMD and found a John Ingram who died in Kings Norton in 1849. That's one for me to follow up before anything else!

Oh well - good job I enjoy a challenge!!

(I've got a Sherlock Holmes book on the go here at the moment so hopefully that will give me inspiration. )

MB

What an intriguing puzzle - it's rather like the conflicting reports of the death of John Sykes, Nelson's coxswain. I think it's pretty well established now that he died in an accident in 1799* - Nelson mentions in his 'Sketch of my Life' (1799) 'John Sykes, my coxswain, now no more.' But this didn't prevent Carola Oman from writing that John Sykes had died aged 80, a fishmonger in Greenwich. The Annual Register of 1841 records the same information.

Well, at least they didn't have Twitter to add to the rumour mill!

Do keep us posted about Sgt Ingram.

*no, 1798 - see Tony's correction below.

This might help, Mark:

The 1851 census has John Ingram, Greenwich pensioner, aged 72, born King's Norton, living at 101 Lawley Street, Aston, Birmingham, with his wife 'C' aged 73, born Plymouth.

Tony

No "might" in it. That has to be our man doesn't it. Thanks so much.

As I said before - I don't have access to Ancestry.com here - but later on was going to check out the censuses. I really only expected to find anything on the 1841 census - but 1851 is great.

My main guess was that the newspaper had added 1 + 1 + 1 and made 5 - and that seems to be the case. i.e. they infer, but don't actually state, that Ingram came back to Birmingham immediately after Trafalgar.

I just took a quick look on FreeBMD and there are 3 John Ingrams who died in the Aston parish between 1851 and 1861. So will look into those later.

But at least now I can see the wood for the trees.

This is very interesting. It is the third "Trafalgar man" - born in the Birmingham area - who obviously returned and died here.

Thanks again. Will report back with anything additional that I find.

MB

At least in this case the newspaper seems to have the right man, even if they have killed him off 50 years too soon!

Anna, here is what the Norfolk Chronicle had to say in 1841 about the reporting of the death of the wrong John Sykes:
But Anna, I must prevent you from perpetuating another much more minor inaccuracy! John Sykes did not die in 1799, but in 1798. As you say, Nelson described him as 'now no more', writing in October 1799, and Nicolas in 'Dispatches & Letters' correctly described him as being killed by the bursting of a cannon before October 1799. But then Pettigrew and Joseph Allen incorrectly copied this as being killed in 1799 (Joseph Allen being very specific that he was killed in October 1799). Other historians have since copied the mistake. He was actually killed while gunner of the Andromache by the bursting of a cannon on 30 April 1798 (according to Captain Mansfield's log). One or two other accounts have his death as 1st or 3rd May 1798.

Thanks, Tony. I've edited the post, directing future viewers to your correction! Perhaps we can start a thread on Chinese Whispers in Nelson biographies.