Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
It is currently Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:43 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Oaths
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:35 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
I note that in a letter from St Vincent to Lady Hamilton dated 22nd May 1798, he remarks that he is 'bound by my oath of chivalry to protect all who are persecuted and distressed....'

Is this just flowery licence on St V.'s part, who could lay it on with a trowel if so minded, or did an officer actually take such an oath, as part of, or apart from, his oath of allegiance to the Crown?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 1376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Tycho,

I wonder if this doesn't refer to the oath he took when he was installed as a Knight of the Bath, in 1782. I found this interesting site, which also mentions some of the other knights we might be familiar with!

http://www.heraldicsculptor.com/bath.html

One wonders though, since it was from St Vincent to Lady Hamilton, whether he was being ironic!

Kester.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:09 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
I hadn't thought it might have been an oath he took when he was knighted - but do knights still take oaths? It was certainly a medieval convention for a knight to swear to be brave, loyal, to protect the weak etc. but I don't know when it became obsolete. When I attended an Investiture at Buckingham Palace, the men who were knighted then didn't take an oath; they just got a tap on each shoulder with a rather fearsome looking sword.

I think this is just St V. getting carried away with his own verbosity; he always seems to be at his most effusive when he didn't actually deliver the goods. This letter is a case in point saying he'd love to help, but he's too busy so he's sending a deputy. Here it is:

My dear Madam,

I feel myself highly honoured and flattered by your Ladyship's charming letter of the 15th April. The picture you have drawn of the lovely Queen of Naples and the Royal family, would rouse the indignation of the most unfeeling of the creation at the infernal designs of those devils, who, for the scourge of the human race, govern France. I am bound by my oath of chivalry to protect all who are persecuted and distressed, and I would fly to the succour of their Sicilian Majesties was I not positively forbid to quit my post before Cadiz. I am happy, however, to have a knight of superior prowess in my train, who is charged with this enterprise, at the head of a gallant band as ever drew sword...'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: England
As a Knight of the Bath, he would have sworn this oath:
"You shall honor God above all Things; You shall be steadfast in the Faith of Christ; You shall love the King your Soverign Lord, and him and his Right defend to your Power; You shall defend Maidens, Widows, and Orphans, in their rights; and shall suffer no extortion, as far as you may pervent it; and of as great honor be this Order unto you, as ever it was to any of your Progenitors, or others By the Oath you have this Day taken, I exhort and admonish you, to use this Sword to the Glory of God, the Defense of the Gospel, and the Maintenance of your Soverign's Right, and Honor, and of all Equity, and Justice to the utmost of your Power; so help you God."
and he would have been admonished that he would have his spurs hacked off if he broke it.

_________________
Tony


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:49 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
Thanks, Tony. So oath-taking was still extant in 'our' period. I wonder when it died out?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Oaths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:01 am
Posts: 10
Location: Omaha, NE USA
When I joined and Marine Corps and again when I joined law enforcement I took an oath to suuport and defend the constitution of the US against all enemies forgien and domestic and to not be part of any group that planned to overthrow the government. There are still oaths out there. It just depends on the organization as to what the content is.

_________________
Kevin Griger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:11 am
Posts: 1376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
In addition to the above oath taking is still performed in the UK by many bodies, as is shown by this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7289504.stm

Many years ago when I joined the Scout Movement, I made the Promise, and subsequently heard it from those joining the Troop when I became a Scout leader.

Refering back to my earlier link, if you scroll down, the procedure for the installation of a Knight of the Bath is given and it is also mentioned that the ceremony takes place every five years, the last being in 2002. Since this is now a little out of date, and following that reckoning, presumably the actual last one was in 2007.

Kester


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:06 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
I thought forum members, particularly Sarpy on the other side of the pond, might find amusing this anecdote of an unusual oath. The story is recorded in James Scott's 'Recollections of a Naval Life.' (Richard Bentley, London 1834)

Having explained that many Englishmen sought to escape being pressed into the navy, he continues:

QUOTE:

An English sailor wished for protection as an American citizen. The candidate for this honour was placed by his friends in a cradle and the ceremony of rocking him was witnessed by a man old enough to be his father; the next day, the parties appeared before a magistrate.

"Are you an American born citizen?"

"I am."

"Is there an inhabitant of the city can identify you as such?"

"There is."

And the old man who had seen him only the day previously was brought forward and swore point blank that he had seen him rocked in his cradle. This was sufficient and without further investigation, the protection was handed over to the applicant.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Test Act and Oath of Allegiance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:32 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
Gardner writes in his 'Recollections', that he passed his lieutenant's examination and 'after being sworn in at the Admiralty, I left London and joined the Hind, 28.'

A footnote states that 'before the repeal of the Test Act in 1828 it was required that 'all persons holding any office of profit or trust, civil or military, under the crown, take the oath of allegiance and supremacy, receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper according the the rites of the Church of England, and subscribe to the doctrine against transubstantiation.'

Though the mention of transubstantiation and the oath acknowledging the supremacy of the monarch over the Pope in England may seem to be directed largely at barring Roman Catholics from public office, other religious groups were also excluded by the Test Act, including protestant dissenters and Jews.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:12 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
tycho wrote:
I thought forum members, particularly Sarpy on the other side of the pond, might find amusing this anecdote of an unusual oath. The story is recorded in James Scott's 'Recollections of a Naval Life.' (Richard Bentley, London 1834)

Having explained that many Englishmen sought to escape being pressed into the navy, he continues:

QUOTE:

An English sailor wished for protection as an American citizen. The candidate for this honour was placed by his friends in a cradle and the ceremony of rocking him was witnessed by a man old enough to be his father; the next day, the parties appeared before a magistrate.

"Are you an American born citizen?"

"I am."

"Is there an inhabitant of the city can identify you as such?"

"There is."

And the old man who had seen him only the day previously was brought forward and swore point blank that he had seen him rocked in his cradle. This was sufficient and without further investigation, the protection was handed over to the applicant.'


This sounds like an extreme example, but according to Dudley Pope (Life in Nelson's Navy) the requirements for getting a document of US citizenship were pretty simple, and a lot of abuse took place. This led to wholesale doubt on the part of British authorities as to the veracity of these documents, which led to impressment of Americans, which in turn was a factor leading to the War of 1812.[/u][/i]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 am
Posts: 2793
Location: mid-Wales
Thanks for that pointer, Chrisber.

A further consequence of Americans having been impressed in the RN is that many refused to fight against their native country during the 1812 war and ended up in Dartmoor Prison. (See 'American Prisoners of War. thread on p. 3.)

I've also noted in 'First Hand Accounts' on the Information Forum, the diary of James Durand, an impressed American, who was clapped in irons for refusing to take part in the attack on Stonington, Connecticut.

_________________
Anna


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Oaths
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:36 am
Posts: 1
Thanks, Tony. So oath-taking was still extant in 'our' period. i used keto slim diet and it's awesome fat burner pills I wonder when it died out?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by p h p B B © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 p h p B B Group