Nelson & His World

I notice that Captain (later Admiral) John Carter Allen is mentioned elsewhere on the board, but wonder if any members have information on his service career (or, indeed, on his life in general). I have been able to unearth some interesting facts during research on his grandsons, but I would be grateful to anyone who was able to point me in the direction of source material on him, etc.

I have come across John Carter Allen once in my research, as Captain of the Albion (74) in 1776. My ancestor (Charles John Moore Mansfield) and two of his brothers all served in the Albion at different times and under different captains. John Carter Allen took command of the Albion on 17 November 1775, and I think he remained in command until transferring to the Egmont in May or June 1778, which he commanded in the Battle of Ushant. The Albion had been a guard-ship at Plymouth, and the list of officers and captain's servants in the Albion's muster suggest strong connections with Plymouth, and I would be very interested if your research provides any details on naval officers and families in Plymouth during the 1770s?

You probably already have his obituary from the Naval Chronicle:
There is a more detailed biographical memoir on him in the Naval Chronicle volume XXIII p 177-181.

Note that the dates for the Albion and Egmont are incorrect in both Naval Chronicle pieces.

I am aware that his grandsons were rather interesting characters, claiming that their father Thomas was actually the son of Bonnie Prince Charlie, secretly fostered by John Carter Allen. I believe they also invented the 'history' of Scottish tartans that persists today?

Good morning, I descend from John Carter Allen and will be glad to help you anyway.

Hello,
My name is Andrew Jeffrey and I am a gggg grandson of Admiral John Carter Allen. I have recently traced my ancestry back through my Australian grandfather George Hay Allen to Admiral Allen via the marriage certificate of John Carter Allen ( b 1818??). His marriage certificate lists Admiral John Allen as father and Jane Hester mother. This was the document which allowed me to make the link to the original Admiral John Carter Allen.

Here is my ancestry back to Admiral John Carter Allen:
Margaret Joan Allen, b 1925 Australia
George Hay Allen, b 1890 Australia
John Handcock Allen, b 1844 England, d 1900 Australia
John Carter Allen b 1818?? d 1849 England ( son John Handcock and daughter Sarah )
Admiral John Allen b 1773, d 1853 ( I am aware of only one child, John Carter Allen, although there maybe others )
Admiral John Carter Allen b 1725?? d 1800 ( I am aware of son John Allen, an apparently "adopted" son Thomas and a daughter referred to in an online article )

I have read with great interest the naval history of both Admiral Allens, all of which has been readily available on the internet. There are so many articles I am still going through them all.

I am now trying to trace the ancestry back further and find answers to the following:
[*]are there birth,death and marriage certificates available for both Admirals
[*]name of Admiral John Carter Allen's first wife
[*]is a birth certificate available for John Carter Allen, b 1818.
[*]what is the origin of the Carter middle name?
NOTE: There is the birth of a Carter Allen in 1700 ( St Sepulchre, London ), father John Allen and mother Ann. I wonder if this Carter Allen could be Admiral Allen's father?
[*]How far back can the naval history be traced or did it start with Admiral Allen
[*]how far back can the Allen family be traced?

I realise there may be no simple way of obtaining answers but any any assistance advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I can't help with much, but I can answer one question. According to the Complete Navy List, Admiral John Carter Allen's first wife was Juliana Hampden, the daughter of William Hampden, and grand-daughter of John Hampden (1594 - 1643).

Please note: this is a post by Anna (Tycho). I am at my daughter's house, using her computer and cannot access the website using my own username.

Could the John Hampden mentioned above be the 'famous' John Hampden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hampden

If so, an illustrious ancestor indeed!

And a little more on John Hampden: http://www.johnhampden.org/jhdeath.pdf

Yes, it is the 'famous' John Hampden, but this seems a bit dubious as John Carter Allen's wife's grandfather therefore died about 80 years before John Carter Allen was born! There must surely be some generations missing here?

Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for the responses. Once I read that Juliana Hampden was Admiral John Carter Allen's first wife, I typed in the two names to Google. An excerpt from a book ( genealogy of commoners ) suggests that the parents of Captain Allen ( he was not made an Admiral until 1799 ) were Admiral Sir John Allen and lo and behold, Juliana Hampden. I wonder if you could please have a look and see if my interpretation is correct. I would also be interested in the exact wording in the Navy record relating to Juliana Hampden and is there any other information which might be useful?

I also found an entry in the LDS website to a John Allen marrying an Elizabeth Carter, in Cambridge 1767. This was her second marriage. If this is correct I wonder if Admiral Allen took on Carter as a middle name after they married. The Carters were also a very famous family and ardent Jacobites, although this Allen / Carter marriage may be just a convenient coincidence in my research.

NOTE: I see the Naval record also references Captain John Allen 1773 - 1853. I know he married a Jane Hester and I think it was in Gibraltar. I would be interested to know what else it says about him and whether it mentions children. His son John Carter Allen is my gg grandfather.

Regards,
Andrew Jeffrey

I've also been searching for the first wife of Admiral John Carter Allen (1724-1800). With Juliana Hampden the dates are askew, and John's father was Carter Allen (rather than Sir John Allen).
His 1800 obit in the Gentleman's Magazine (which is largely correct in all other respects) mixes up his first wife with his second, but the background information would suggest his first wife was a member of the Hill or Rowe families, although I haven't found a link.
His elder son Thomas used Gatehouse as well as Hay as a middle name so this might be an option. Hay was the Admiral's mothers maiden name.
The younger Admiral John Carter Allen (1773?-1853) married Jane Hester Skinner (c1783-1859), dtr of Colonel Thomas Skinner, Royal Engineers. Skinner was based in Gibraltar and the Hester comes from his mother Hester Lauder, dtr of Colin Lauder of Berwick.

Steven

Hi Steven,
I appreciate the information on the Skinner family. I descend from Admiral John Carter Allen and his son John Allen and Jane Hester ( nee Skinner ). I have been in touch with Carlos recently.
We all seem to be searching for the first wife of the Admiral. I don't know where else to look other than Ancestry and LDS. I had got back as far as Carter Allen and Emma Hay. Maybe there is a clue to the Admiral's first wife with the middle names of John Allen's children ( Munroe and Vansittart), although I haven't found a link yet.
I have read the biography by George Skene where it refers to a London Lord Mayor back in the 1500's ( Rowe ). There were also a couple of Allens as Lord Mayor's in the 1500's but not sure whether they are related.
There is also a Golden Falcon article which talks about the intermarrying of the Allen and Carter families which presumably must have been in the 1600's. This one would also be an interesting one to explore.
Anyway, I suppose we just search and discover additional pieces of the puzzle.
Regards,
Andrew Jeffrey

Andrew
Apologies for the late reply.
I would be interested in knowing how you descend from Admiral John Allen - I have traced a few of his descendants.
I think the Munroe and Vansittart may refer to ships - will check again.
The Rowe link comes from the church in Hackney that John Carter Allen hoped to be buried in. The Rowe had a vault there but later fell on hard times. The vault was in poor condition in 1800 and it seems JCA didnt get his wish. Almost everything in the Gentlemans Magazine obit has proved true - so I believe the link is still there to be found.

Regards

Steven

Hi Steven,
I descend from John Carter Allen as follows:
My mother: Margaret Joan Jeffrey ( nee Allen ), b 1925
Her Father: George Hay Allen b 1890 and d 1977
His Father: John Handcock Allen b 1844 and emigrated to Australia around 1864 with his mother, Margaret Allen. He died 1900 ( Australia )
His Father: John Carter Allen, b 1812?? d 1849, unable to locate a birth certificate and can't find on the 1841 census with his wife Margaret ( nee Scott ).
His Father: Admiral John Allen, b 1772? d 1853
NOTE: On the 1851 Census he claims to have been born in Hampshire, however I have been unable to find his birth certificate, although one article claims that a birth certificate had been located).
NOTE: I would love to locate his birth certificate to indentify his mother. This may be a forlorn hope, but you just never know.

His Father: Admiral John Carter Allen, b 1724 and d 1800
Carlos and I have been discussing the Admiral's obituary where it refers to a wealthy first wife, but no name is mentioned. I will have to refer back to some notes from Carlos but the name of Hatch does arise in some context.

NOTE: Given JCA was not buried in the Rowe vault, do you know where he is buried? Also do you know how the Rowe name weaves it's way into the picture?

Also it would be interesting to trace the origin of the Carter name. The Admiral's father was Carter Allen, b 1700 and d 1734, but that is as far back as I have been able to go.

From memory in the LDS, his Carter Allen's father was John Allen and mother Ann. I would love to know more about the life of Carter Allen, eg profession how he died. Also was John Carter Allen the first of the family to have a naval involvement and if so how did it occur.

I am also endeavouring to understand the hay ancestry. Emma Hay was John Carter Allen's mother but I have had no success tracing her lineage or indeed her death. Did she remarry after the death of carter Allen?

The other interesting references in one of the previous posts is the name of Juliana Hampden suggesting she was the wife of JCA. This doesn't seem to fit and there is a reference in the Gentleman's Magazine to Juliana Hampden marrying Sir John Allen ( not sure where he fits in or is he a different family? ).

Anyway, lots of food for thought and of course any information to enlighten us further would be most welcome and much appreciated.

Regards,
Andrew Jeffrey

Andrew
I have John Carter Allen born in 1811. He married Margaret Scott, dtr of George Scott of Dublin in November 1840. Birth certificates only existed after 1837, but the birth record is likely to be in church records somewhere.
Carlos has worked out the Hatch link - but this is from the Admiral's second wife - he married three times. The first wife is the woman we can't find. The links to the aristocracy suggest she was either a Rowe or Hill, although as Thomas used Gatehouse this may be it.
The Hampden link is a mistake. The first marriage must have been around 1765 as Thomas was born in 1767.
Carter was a lawyer, but I cant find anything else about Emma Hay. Its possible she was an illegitimate daughter of Charles Hay 13th Earl of Erroll.

s