Nelson's bowl

tycho · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:01 pm

I've had a message from a friend who is a steward at Tyntesfield, a National Trust property in Somerset. She was looking at a plate from the Nelson service today. It has Nelson's coat of arms, the words 'San Josef' and the date 22 April. Does anyone know the significance of this date and why it should appear on a dinner plate of Nelson's? I wonder if it is an error and should read 2 April, the date of the battle of Copenhagen. Any ideas?

post captain · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:33 am

The Royal Naval museum at Portsmouth have dinner plates relating to Copenhagen called 'Baltic Service' and that they have the same mistake you mention and is noted as such on the display case.

Mark Barrett · **Joined:** Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm **Posts:** 1088

Hope I am not confusing the issue here. But on the Antiques Roadshow on Sunday somebody had brought in a bowl which was said to come from the "Nelson Service".

But the expert deemed it to be a copy/fake possibly made around the time of the Trafalgar centenary.

There was no mention of an incorrect date.

Perhaps on the fake they got the date correct!!

MB

Mark Barrett · **Joined:** Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm **Posts:** 1088

Oh crikey!

How confusing!!

I just found this page on Bonhams website.

The text at the bottom suggests that Nelson had one of these services BUT all sorts of other copies were made.

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.s ... ectionNo=1

It would seem really odd if Nelson's own service had an incorrect date - as opposed to one of the copies.

But who knows??!!

MB

Or - is this a completely different service? As I say - sorry if I have sent this thread on the wrong tack!

Devenish · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:42 am

Anna,

Is there no year on the plate? Are we actually sure that the date, the 22nd, refers to 1801 and Copenhagen?

Nelson captured the San Joseph at Cape St Vincent and prior to Copenhagen he used her as his flagship. He transferred into the St George to go to the Baltic.
The ship was, of course, part of the crest to his Arms.

If it was a genuine mistake on the factory's part and the date was 1801, then I would imagine it might be worth a bit. I also imagine the plate is not used!?

Is there any chance you can get a photograph of the plate, to put on the forum?

Tony · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:22 pm

Going on the information in Rina Prentice, ‘The Authentic Nelson’, the plate at Tyntesfield must be a FAKE (the NT may prefer the term ‘later copy’!).

Quote:

There are many later copies of this service, which can sometimes cause confusion. Some of the copies are very close to the originals and may be by Sampson of Paris. In other cases the shapes are quite different, and the paintings are of far lower quality and easily worn. In these examples the oak leaves are spiky and very unrealistic and there are errors in the inscriptions, such as 22 April instead of 2nd…

This refers to the ‘Nelson arms and oak leaf service’, described in the Merton inventories as the ‘Nelson Service’, and which has the coat of arms in the centre and a border of oak leaves.

Mark, the photos from Bonhams are what Rina Prentice calls the ‘Baltic Service’, with a fouled anchor rather than the coat of arms.

Mark Barrett · **Joined:** Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm **Posts:** 1088

Tony

Thanks

I had a feeling that I should do a bit more research before making my post - and that has proved correct. (It was that item on Antiques Roadshow that led me astray!!)

As you say the service Anna is referring to is the Nelson Service which has the full coat-of-arms, not the Baltic Service which has the fouled anchor.

I do agree that it seems fairly inconceivable that the date error would be on an item from the original service.

What a minefield the world of collectables is!!

MB

tycho · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:48 pm

Grovelling apologies! It was late, and I was very tired when I posted last night. I made a mistake - we're talking about a BOWL, not a plate. Here is an extract from my friend's email:

I was looking at a Nelson bowl at Tyntesfield today ( I think it must be part of the Nelson service of china.) It bears the name Nelson, the date of April 22nd and the words San Josef. Would that be the name of a flagship? Inside the bowl is a coat of arms with Latin motto. Did Nelson acquire a coat of arms when he was ennobled and do you know the motto?
A similar bowl appeared on the Antiques Roadshow recently but was thought to be a copy as the coat of arms was inaccurate and incomplete.
Any information would be welcome!!

I'll email a copy of Nelson's coat of arms so that she can compare it to the one on the Tyntesfield bowl. The wrong date does suggest it's a fake.

I'll also ask her to send, if possible, an image of the bowl at Tyntesfield.

I've amended the title of this thread to Nelson's Bowl

post captain · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:45 pm

But is the one in the Naval museum a fake, they do not mention it as such, i think i may have to pay another visit.

Devenish · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:11 pm

This wouldn't be it, would it?

http://www.robertfinan.co.uk/June2005_f.htm#HORATIO

The date is actually right for Copenhagen and the San Joseph is inscribed. I can't understand however why it has the name San Joseph, since as far as I know she wasn't present. Nor was she at the Nile, which is the second date, although as I mentioned she was Nelson's flagship just prior to Copenhagen.

Tony · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:54 pm

Kester, I think that bowl is from the Baltic Service again. It commemorates all three of his battles (without quite naming them) by the inscriptions:

I found a transcript of the recent Antiques Roadshow item mentioned by Mark. It is quite informative:

Quote:

Well, that looks like an interesting bowl... I suppose I'd call it a punch bowl. Do you know anything about it?
-
It was presented to Nelson after the Battle of Cape St. Vincent...
-
Right. ..
-
in 1797, where he captured two Spanish ships.
-
Right.
-
And it's come down through my husband's family because my husband's very great grandfather was an admiral in Nelson's navy.
-
Fascinating. Well, it's a kind of... This kind of pattern I've seen before and it's a service which we call the Nelson Service. It's French porcelain and it was also Coalport porcelain, a mixture of those two factories, decorated by one maker in London, and presented to Nelson at a banquet in the City of London in 1802 and it's well known to collectors of commemorative pieces as the Nelson Service.
-
Oh, so it was all... This was just one part of a sort of set?
-
Well, there are things about this bowl that confuse me - that get my brain a bit fuddled and sends me, sets me full of doubt. - And first of all there's the style of painting, which isn't the painting that I'm used to seeing on the Nelson Service, and I've handled quite a few pieces of the set over the years. - Also, the coat of arms in the centre... on this one it's entirely hand painted but I know that on the Nelson Service, to save time and money... and this is hard to believe... but they did print the outline of the arms and hand-coloured in, within the printed outline. - Mm-hm. - Yours is hand painted so I think, "Ooh," and not quite... The feeling isn't quite right. - I think this bowl was made in France and decorated in France.
-
Oh, right.
-
Probably in 1905.
-
Oh, really?
-
To celebrate the centenary of Nelson's death at the Battle of Trafalgar. - Is there any way that this bowl could have come into the family at a later date, into a family that already knew it had Nelson connections, and might actually have been going out into the market and seeking other things of Nelson interest? Because I know from experience that can sometimes happen in family histories when things get confused.
-
All I know is that it was inherited by my mother-in-law from her grandfather.
-
I have to say, I think this is a French, probably Samson commemorative piece.
-
Oh, right.
-
That a member of your family, for understandable reasons, bought in the early 20th century. - That's terribly disappointing in a way, but you know, it's a wonderful thing for someone descended from Nelson to have in the family. - It's worth probably £150, maybe £200, as opposed to the thousands of pounds if had been really from the Nelson Service. - So I'm sorry to give you that news, and how do you feel? - Have I devastated you?
-
No, I'll just have to... - Cos it's my husband's family so I'll have to tell them and see if they can find out any more about where it came from.
-
That would... - that's where the interest lies, just to see whether you can prove me right or wrong. - Yeah. - I'm glad you're... I'm glad you're still smiling.
-
Yes. OK. Thank you very much.

She may have been still smiling, but it was a pretty wry smile!

Here are a couple of examples from the Nelson Service:
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson ... =1#content
http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalogue/ ... ZE=smaller

The plate sold for over £15,000, so goodness knows what a bowl would sell for!

It does make you wonder about all those auction lot descriptions where the provenance is 'by direct descent'... Perhaps you should read 'by dubious family tradition'...

Devenish · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:13 pm

Tony,

Thanks for the explanation and the transcript. As you imply, I bet she was a bit miffed!

tycho · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:20 pm

Update from my friend this morning:

Phew! What a fascinating amount of information about Nelson, the bowl and memorabilia. Have looked at the web site and e mails with interest. The coat of arms on the Tyntesfield bowl is the same as the one on the Maritime museum wbsite, interestingly the stern of the San Josef is apparently shown on later versions of his coat of arms. The main puzzle seems to be the date of April 22nd.
I will try and find out more at Tyntesfield, but doubt I will be able to have a photograph.The bowl certainly looks of high quality and is not likely to be a copy.

This is the NMM link I sent her:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson ... ID=BHC1078

Tony · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:17 pm

I’m not sure that the NMM painting of Nelson’s coat of arms is as helpful as it could be, because as the NMM description says, it includes some, but not all, of his armorial bearings. The crest consisting of the stern of the San Josef was part of his earliest grant of arms in October 1797 as a Knight of the Order of the Bath, following her capture at the Battle of Cape St Vincent. The crest with the chelengk was added (fairly obviously!) following his barony after the Battle of the Nile.

The 1805 Club use his coat of arms in their logo:

Attachment:

File comment: Nelson's arms - 1805 Club logo

1805logo.png [ 130.75 KiB | Viewed 20926 times ]

Here is another good depiction, drawn by the College of Arms in 1804, which includes all his insignia and medals: http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalogue/ ... ZE=smaller

tycho wrote:

Update from my friend this morning...
...The bowl certainly looks of high quality and is not likely to be a copy.

Some of the copies are of very good quality. The NMM admit that one of their items is a copy - see here: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explor ... ID=AAA4580

Given that there are known examples of copies with the incorrect date of 22nd April, I do think it may be a little optimistic to hope that the Tyntesfield bowl turns out to be the first original with the same error.

Here is an example of a tea bowl and saucer with the incorrect date of 22nd April: http://www.bamfords-auctions.co.uk/BidC ... LotRef=421 . It was described as early 19th C, but sold for only £200, which almost says it all, but it does look like the saucer is chipped. What looks like the same bowl and saucer sold a year earlier for £280: http://www.bamfords-auctions.co.uk/BidC ... LotRef=336 . It is described as the Baltic Service, but it is the Nelson Service with the coat of arms. The auction houses seem to use the two names interchangeably.

But perhaps Post Captain has news from the RNM at Portsmouth…? But that relates to the Baltic Service rather than the Nelson Service, doesn’t it? Or does it?

Tony · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:00 pm

Doh! Just realised that the NMM also themselves have a bowl with the incorrect 22 April date (and a mistake in the motto), which they say is a later copy: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explor ... ID=AAA4585

Enlarged: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/displa ... =1#content

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