Nelson & His World

Just received this Google alert about the sale of Nelson's star of the Order of the Bath:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 69116.html

Any advance on £300,000, the current estimate? I predict it will go for more than that.

I also predict that Mark will say, 'Hmm. Probably knocked together in a garage in Wolverhampton'.

Anna

I promise that I never make a sceptical post just to be deliberately controversial. It's just that years and years of experience have hammered into me that things are not always as they seem. In my book much better to be a bit doubtful up front than let down badly later.

I will have to refresh my memory later about the robbery at Greenwich. i.e. what remained after the robbery and who owned it. (I just assumed that the non-stolen items remained at Greenwich and eventually passed to the NMM. But that must be incorrect.)

So who has owned it all this time? And who is selling it now?

Intriguing!

MB

I think the letter shown in the Daily Mail article is reasonably conclusive - but strangely uncharacteristic of William Nelson - giving something away!

It looks like it survived the Greenwich robbery by not being there in the first place!

According to a report in The Times of this morning, the decoration was "...lost to the nation for more than 200 years" because it was "...given after Nelson's death in 1805 to his friend Admiral Sir Richard Goodwin Keats" and it is being offered for sale by "...a descendant of Admiral Keats living abroad".

Sale apparently by Morton & Eden on 22 October.

The date of the letter from William Nelson which accompanied the gift was 24 March 1814. What prompted the gift at that particular time?

Tony

I am sure you are correct. I am just looking at a photo of the display of Nelson's medals and insignia at Greenwich before the robbery and the Order of the Bath was definitely not included.

So the Independent report is somewhat misleading.


That I have to agree with as well - but I guess the letter has to stand as proof.


I believe by that date Paris had been taken by the Coalition forces so the war against Napoleon was all but won (for the first time!). Just wondering if it had anything to do with a sense of euphoria which was doubtless being felt throughout the country.

Albeit that is pure guesswork on my behalf.

MB

I'm a bit confused about the various insignia of the Order of the Bath, but I think I may have figured it out:

Nelson's 'Star of the Order of the Bath' we now know about.

Nelson's 'Jewel of the Order of the Bath' was at Greenwich, was stolen and was not recovered. See centre of this photo:

I had thought the Jewel and the Badge of the Order of the Bath were one and the same thing, and could be worn on a ribbon or suspended from the Collar (chain) of the Order of the Bath. But it seems that Nelson had both a 'badge' and a 'jewel' (as well as the 'star'). The badge survives, attached to the collar in the Nelson collection at Lloyd's:

News of the sale has reached overseas blogspots:

http://thedrawncutlass.blogspot.com/201 ... er-of.html

The writer expresses surprise that the government is allowing this sale to go ahead. We discussed this on the thread about the sale of the Spartiate's flag. It's a difficult one, this. In a free society, people have the right to dispose of their private possessions as they see fit, and the seller's title to this is unquestionable. The only thing the government can do is to refuse an export licence, temporarily, to allow interested parties in the UK to try to raise the money to exceed the sale price. The ideal solution would be for a multi-millionaire (who can we petition?) to buy it and present or loan it to the the nation for public display in a suitable museum (NMM, Royal Naval Museum etc.)

However, am I right in thinking that collars of Orders of Chivalry have to be returned to the Queen on the death of the owner? My husband used to work with a man whose father was a general and a member of the Order of the Bath. The son had no idea that the collar had to be returned after his father's death until my husband (who's a heraldry buff) told him. So he went in a taxi to Buckingham Palace to hand it over. Did Nelson receive special permission to retain his collar? If not, then maybe title can be questioned and the Queen can step in and ask for it to be returned.

Yes, the collar has to be returned, but possibly not the star?

Also, Nelson's and Wellington's families were given special permission to keep the collars.

If it is of interest I have a nice hard back book here entitled "The History of the Order of the Bath and its Insignia."

It has about 200 pages and was produced by Spink & Co. so it is a nice book. There are quite a few colour illustrations.

A funny story attaches to the book. I ordered a copy about 5 years ago by post with cheque attached. But several weeks later no book had arrived, the cheque had not been presented, and I duly forgot all about it. Then about a year later the book arrived! There was a letter to say they had just discovered my order!! And to apologise for their administrative oversight I could have the book free of charge. Nice one!

I will check out if there is any specific mention of Nelson in the book - I seem to recall that there is.

And if there are any burning issues that you think might be covered let me know.

Mark

Tony: sorry, my post was incomplete - I was thinking about shopping lists and 101 other things - I meant to add that maybe the star needed to be returned as well. Interesting that the Nelson and Wellington families were allowed to keep the collars; a handsome gift indeed! Ian's colleague's father had to insure his for £37,000 - this would have been in the 1990s - that's why Michael took a taxi to the Palace from their office in Whitehall. It's not a long walk but he felt he could hardly stroll up the Mall with £37,000 worth of stuff in a Tesco's bag!

Mark: nice story about your book! The best companies always treat you handsomely when the mistake is theirs. I recall reading a letter in a newspaper some years ago about a man whose Rolls Royce broke down. He contacted the company and they promptly sent a man to repair the half-shaft. After many months, he asked why he hadn't received a bill. 'A bill, sir? For a broken half-shaft? Oh, no, sir. The half shaft never breaks on a Rolls Royce.'

However would the present government grant one. After all, its only a bit of old jewelry that belonged to Britain's most well known hero, and it's just history and water-under-the-bridge now - like the holocaust, which equally hasn't any relevance today and which has apparently been removed from the history syllabus in schools!

Sorry, perhaps I'm being a little unfair, I don't now what came over me! Perhaps I should take my own advice and go and lie down in a darkened room for half an hour!

Seriously though, which department is actually responsible for granting such licences? I would imagine that any of the museums mentioned would have a great deal of difficulty in raising the asking price, even collectively, so hopefully as Anna suggested some patriotic multi-millonaire will come forward (or maybe as you also suggest, we should try and think of someone to approach.) It really would be tragic if this important element of Nelson's decorations were to go abroad. If it, hopefully, remains in the UK, I think the best place for it would be at the NMM, on display next to Nelson's uniform coat (suitably protected of course!).

Kester:

You have to apply to the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council if you want to export an antique or a work of art over a certain value. The MLA can put a temporary halt on taking it out of the country if they choose.

The planned sale has been mentioned in the press, but it's more vigorous publicity that's needed to make people aware, so that possible 'saviours' can be approached. I don't think the government can do much in the present financial climate.

Of course, it could be bought by a millionaire at home and kept in his safe where no one could see it - and there's nothing to be done about that.

Anna,

Thanks for the info. As you say, the sale has been mentioned in the press, but as you imply there should also appear a well-reasoned article as to why this important piece of Nelsonia should not only remain in the country, but also be put on public display for all to see. As you say however, a millionaire could buy the star and, sadly, keep it in is or her home.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Kester. Forgive me for twisting your words, but this star of the Order of the Bath is the same as any other. Unlike Nelson's letters, it tells us nothing about the man. Unlike his coat, it wasn't made to measure. Unlike his Naval Gold Medals, it wasn't even engraved with his name. I would be disgusted if the State were to spend half a million on this bit of silver, gold and enamel, when there are hospitals and schools to be funded. Now if it were the wire and sequin replica that he had made to actually wear on his coat, that would be another matter...

If anyone wants to throw a few hundred thousand pounds around, how about a few more grants to fund research?

It is private ownership that we have to thank for the survival of this star - It was public ownership that lost the other insignia at Greenwich, and the chelengk at the NMM.

But for private individuals who can afford such trinkets, how about some tax incentives to put them on public display?

Now, do I really believe what I have just said?

I think perhaps I do...