Nelson & His World

It is well known that British ships in Nelson's navy often had a sizeable number of foreign seamen aboard. Are there many instances of foreign officers serving on British ships? Caracciolo served in British ships, I believe, and Nelson thought of serving in the Russian Navy when he couldn't get a ship. Was service under a foreign flag widespread? And how did foreign officers serving in British ships get round the Oath of Allegiance to the King? And also the Test Act that demanded an Oath of Allegiance to the Church of England?

I believe there were foreign born officers in the Navy- Alexander Elphinstone (from Russia) and Frederick Thesiger (Germany) are two. There was also Lieutenant Bartholomew Bonifant, a Frenchman from Corsica, who claimed to have gone to school with Napoleon...

British officers certainly went abroad - several (Greig, Elphinstone etc.) served in the Russian Navy - indeed I think several Elphinstones seemed to have happily served in both British and Russian navies; but I do not think it was 'widespread'. Of course after the end of the French wars in 1815 a number of officers took up posts in South America.

There were several American-born officers in the navy - the Brentons, Benjamin Hallowell, Isaac Coffin etc., whose families remained loyal to the crown.

The Oath of Allegiance is an interesting point - it seems to have fallen out of use in the late 18th/early 19th century? It was certainly not required from the 19th century onward.

Many thanks, P-N.

While doing my own 'googling' on this topic, I can across a reference to the Admiralty Black Book in the National Archives listing officers who had been dismissed and were not to serve again. A slight digression, but interesting:

Black books, kept by the Admiralty to record the names of officers who had misconducted themselves and who were not to be employed again, are in ADM 12/27B-27E (officers 1759-1815),

The example given was of an officer dismissed for gross disrespect to his captain.

When I worked at the National Archives many years ago, I did holiday relief in the Admiralty Records. A young girl of about 9 had written a neat letter asking for the service record of a naval ancestor of whom she was clearly very proud. I traced the entry - but was alarmed to discover that he had a very erratic and troubled record, culminating in running amok with a knife and almost chopping off his own hand! Since she had paid for her photocopy, I was obliged to send it, but addressed it to her father so that he could decide how to deal with the news which might have upset her. He sent me a nice letter of thanks.

Apologies for digressing yet further - but I once looked up the records of a man who had spent time in a military hospital.

Those associated with him assumed he was suffering from battle injuries.

In fact his records just said - venereal disease.

This was private research I was doing so I was under no obligation - and after some soul searching decided to never mention it.

I have wondered since if I had commited the unforgiveable sin of "rewriting history"??!!

Back to the original question I once saw a report of a Russian squadron that was in British waters circa 1800 - I think 3 captains out of 8 had British names. I have always wondered what were the exact mechanics behind that scenario.

On the one hand we know so much - and yet there is still so much to learn!!

MB

Anna - appreciate you were not really asking about warrant officers - but I have seen a reference to British surgeons serving on Russian ships at the request of the Emperor.

I wonder when/why this strong association between the navies of Britain and Russia first came about and when it finally ended.

MB

Mark:

Strangely enough, I'm reading a book about Elizabeth Proby, the daughter of the Commissioner of Chatham Dockyard, who married the Russian Admiral Pavel Chichagov, and went to live in Russia. The author, Joanna Woods, notes:

'There had been strong links between the Russian and British navies since the time of Peter the Great, who was enthusiastic that the members of his newly formed navy should learn as much as possible from the British. For the British, Russia was a useful source of raw materials. For example, at Chatham, the dockyard replied heavily on supplies of hemp from southern Russia.'


I recall now from school history lessons that Peter the Great came to England to work in the dockyards and learn about shipbuilding at first hand.

The links were strained, of course, when the Baltic Powers, including Russia, banded together in their Armed Neutrality to resist British ships searching them for contraband which precipitated the battle of Copenhagen.

More from Joanna Wood, mentioned in the last post:

'At the beginning of the eighteenth century, Peter the Great created the Russian navy from nothing and employed large numbers of foreign workmen to build its ships. A high proportion of the master craftsmen were British and there were also some British naval officers, but Peter's real objective was to train Russians in seamanship and navigation so that the fleet could operate without foreigners. To this end, he requested the British government to allow young Russians to serve on British ships and employed a Scottish professor of mathematics to set up the school of navigation in Moscow. Throughout the 18th century, the Russian navy continually looked to the British navy as its model.'

......Catherine the Great re-instated Peter's practice of placing young Russians for training in British ships'.....and launched 'through her ambassador in London, the first concerted recruitment for British naval officers. During the following years, despite periodic tensions between the British and Russian governments, many more were recruited.'

I have been dipping in and out of this book but have now settled down to read it properly. Interestingly enough, Admiral Chichagov, Elizabeth Proby's husband, met Nelson, of whom he was a great admirer. He went aboard Nelson's flagship in May 1801, after Copenhagen where 'the two men dined together in the greatest cameraderie.' Nelson wrote out the Manifesto, dated 20 May 1801, in which he agreed to commit no act of hostility to Russia and to respect the freedom of trade of Denmark and Sweden in the Baltic.

I find this association between the British and Russian navies very interesting.

But a strange irony comes to mind.

In the late nineteenth century some Japanese naval cadets came to England for training - one of them later Admiral Togo, who went on to defeat the Russian navy at the Battle of Tsushima in 1905.

MUCH more recently - early 1970's - I had cause to use the swimming pool at H.M.S. Ganges, the R.N. training establishment in Suffolk. At this time - before Ayatollah Khomeini took charge in Iran - Ganges used to take naval cadets from the Iranian navy.

They had to get to a certain standard of fitness in the first two weeks - or they were sent home. Part of this was to swim a certain distance.

I have vivid memories of an instructor standing by the side of the pool with a long pole. Anyone who tried to give up and come to the side was pushed off with the pole. Only when they "went down for the third time" were they dragged out. Quite likely there were some succesful naval careers that would never have happened had it not been for that pole.

MB

Further to the anecdote above - this accords with the "rigorous" reputation held by Ganges.

Below is a picture of the shore-based mast which was one of Ganges' claims to fame.

If you look closely you will see that the button boy at the top actually had to "shin up" the top section of the mast.

I read recently that Brian Phelps, the olympic diver went up to the button and stood on his head!!



MB

As an ex-Ganges boy, I can confirm that it was 'rigorous', but from this distance in time, you remember the good bits, and indeed the even the 'bad bits' don't seem too bad ...

Come on, P-N, tell us more!

Hope you don't mind but I opened a new thread for discussions about H.M.S. Ganges.

Will save this thread being diverted too far from it's original subject.

http://www.nelsonandhisworld.co.uk/view ... =2479#2479

MB

Officers of the Royal Navy on half pay very often applied for and received permission to serve under foreign flags. Another prominent example is Sir Sidney Smith who obtained a knighthood in the Swedish Service. Of course a foreign career was not held too highly in the English Service. Nelson only referred to Smith as "the Swedish Knight", while he held him in contempt.
James Trevenen, having participated in the third voayage of James Cook, is another officer who has been lend by the king into the Russian Naval service.

I cannot remember were, but I have read a proclamation issued by the Crown or by the Admiralty before the outbreak of one of these wars, referring directly to those officers in foreign Service - if I remember correctly ordering them to deposit information of their exact whereabouts and be ready to return home when called for. Sorry I can not give more detailed information - unfortunately I cannot even tell, whether I hold a copy of the proclamation or not...

The Half Pay Regulations introduced in 1715 required all officers to register their places of residence with the admiralty and (amongst other things) banned anyone who was "resident outside HM dominions" from receiving it. These rules remained in force for the rest of the century, with the additional stipulation that officers could serve under foreign (though obviously friendly) flags if specific permission was granted. This being the case, the proclamation referred to by Ned to keep tabs on officers employed elsewhere on the outbreak of war is undoubtedly authentic.

Not all requests to serve overseas were granted. A petition by 6 naval surgeons to join the Dutch Navy in 1785 was refused. Likewise officers in foreign service were not necessarily recalled in time of war. In 1805 there were, for example, 3 commodores, 3 captains, 5 commanders and a handful of lieutenants in the Portuguese Navy who were British subjects, mostly RN veterans. You will recall that one of them, Commodore Campbell, got into severe trouble for tipping off Nelson that the French were heading for the West Indies in the great chase before Trafalgar in 1805.

Brian