Nelson & His World

Anna,

So far as I know, shanties were generally discouraged in the RN since any orders, by bosun's call or voice, might either be missheard or not heard at all. Presumably it is also the reason why shanties were not sung in other navies. Because service in the merchant fleet was not so demanding, it was very likely the reason they were permitted.

However, shanties may have been sung in some situations and they often were in the 'watch below'. These were the 'forebitters' previously mentioned, which were usually songs of home, sweethearts, etc., rather than working shanties. They were so named from their being habitually sung near the forebitts, where the anchor cables were made fast on the gundeck in harbour. I believe on occasion that someone in the crew, competent on a fiddle, was employed to aid operations such as weighing anchor, perhaps seated on the capstan head.

Oops, sorry for not posting the link to Kate Bush - you'll find her here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDn_3VysILs

I'm certainly no expert on sea songs but it could be that one of the reasons for banning shanty singing on Royal Navy ships is that shanties can be somewhat subversive and bawdy in content. Though they undoubtedly served a useful purpose helping the crew establish a rhythm during ardous tasks the navy would have had to establish a list approved shanties guaranteed not to offend officers or females within earshot.

I was also under the impression that shanties were sung in the non-English speraking world (e.g, German and Polish crews) but perhaps I'm wrong.

Anna, Hailwood,

Whilst I agree that officers would want to discourage somewhat doubtful lyrics applied to shanties, such as perhaps pertaining to themselves and other officers, there might also have been the suspicion that they were a means of transmitting thoughts of insurrection and perhaps even mutiny.

However, I believe most authors give the same reason for the lack of shanty singing on board RN warships as I alluded to in my previous post – that they could cause any order not to be heard. Certainly David Proctor in his 'Music of the Sea' says as much. However he also mentions that certain songs, known as 'stamp and go' shanties, were permitted on occasion on both RN ships and those of the East India Company (which were run along naval lines). This involved the men turning their backs to the shantyman (or perhaps fiddler) and stamping out the rythm on the deck, instead of singing, whilst walking away with the rope.

I don't believe that the singing of work songs, including what we know as shanties, were limited to the English speaking world. After all heavy work is heavy work, wherever in the world it is being performed and most societies have devised a means of co-ordinating the men doing it - usually by rhythmical singing. I wouldn't mind betting that the Egyptian workers building the pyramids sang to keep in time. I also seem to remember seeing a film of the crew of an arabian dhow singing whilst hoisting the large lateen sails. Speaking of films, one often sees glimpses of groups of the 'natives' in foreign parts (often in adventure films) singing as they perform some hard physical labour. These are usually only as a brief backdrop to part of the film, but they are more often than not singing in their own tongue, what are quite obviously old, and well known, songs. I can't imagine they are figments of the director's imagination! Anyone remember that early scene from 'Zulu' (before hell broke loose) where a group of local tribesmen were singing whilst building that bridge? Ok, not a shanty, but it was on water!

Incidentally, I can attest that shanty singing is very effective, having sung a few whilst actually hoisting sail on a couple of the ships I sailed in back in the dim and distant past! It certainly hoisted the sails very effectively and was actually very enjoyable!

Thanks, all, for these interesting contributions. I quoted this link in a much earlier post on this thread, but to save you scrolling back, here it is - lots of interesting info. about sea shanties.

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/sea-s ... shanty.htm

Roy & Lesley Adkins mention the rule about working in silence but also comment that singing was encouraged when the men were off-duty. So, strictly speaking, they sang 'forebitters', as Hailwood mentioned above.

The officers and 'young gentlemen' also had their songs, on and off-duty. Many of them are noted in James Anthony Gardner's very amusing reminiscences of his sea service that I've quoted on numerous threads:

'we thought it no harm to go to our hammocks instead of keeping a vile watch; so singing the old song:

I hate this damned watching and trudging the deck;
The most we can get, boys, at best is a check;
Sit still then, and let the lieutenants rail,
We'll ride out the breeze - says Commodore Gale -'

The men of the lower deck often entertained them too:

'Our gunner was one of the drollest fellows I ever met with - it was his delight to come onto the forecastle in the first watch and sing comic songs to amuse the midshipmen assembled there.'

'Billy [Culmer] would upon all occasions when sea fights were spoken of, sing the following song in honour of his old ship [the Buffalo]. It was made by a seaman of the Princess Amelia:'

'Twas on the fifth of August by the dawning of the day,
We spied some lofty sails, my boys, who to leeward of us lay....'

Gardner also quotes the opening of a song but omits the final verses as they are rather bawdy and he doesn't want to give offence!

These are only a few of the songs he mentions in his book: 'Above and Under the Hatches: being naval recollections in shreds and patches with strange reflections' by Commander James Anthony Gardner RN, (Ed. Christopher Lloyd, Batchworth Press 1955).

I am very fond of this book. Gardner wrote these reminiscences purely to entertain friends and family without any thought of publication, so they are very funny and indiscreet!

A slight digression, but I thought it would be of interest. The band of The Rifles Regiment, with the folk singer John Tams, has recorded a very hauntingly sad and beautiful soldier's song, 'Love Farewell', dating from the time of the Napoleonic Wars, to raise funds for a service charity. It reminds us that manners and morals may change, but the human heart does not.

Tycho:

Thanks for alerting us to the John Tams recording. Not only is he one of my favourite singers but the recording is raising much needed money for a great cause (and it's a terrific song!)

Anna,

Thanks for posting that. I saw it a few days ago on BBC World News, but it was good to see it again. A well-timed tribute to those killed in Afganistan.

As an aside, I am enjoying watching the Sharpe series, being shown over here at the moment on television. I wonder if the books are required reading for those joining The Rifles?