Nelson & His World

I'm not so sure, Kester. The fact that the engraving includes the date of the letter suggests to me that it was done after the letter was written, and perhaps after the letter and star were received by Keats.

Keats was Governor of Newfoundland at the time of the gift. I don't know what that tells us!

Tony

Our minds were in sync here because I had been thinking that the inscription could only have been added by the recipient.

It would seem much more normal for the donor to add an inscription as part of the gift-giving process. But I suppose not totally unusual for a recipient to do so.

But would you add such a detailed date - i.e. to the day. Maybe.

Oh dear - why am I sitting here thinking that something doesn't fully add up??!!

I know I only make life difficult for myself.

But I am probably the only person in the world who doubted the provenance of the famous Nelson Purse. Oh - apart from the auctioneer himself that is. He virtually admitted in his book that until the gavel went down he didn't fully believe that the buying public would accept it!!

MB

Is anyone in a position to/bothered to confirm that the writing on the letter & envelope are William's.

I just checked that Richard Keats' will is available to download from the National Archive website. Only £3.50. Having said that most times I have downloaded wills from the NA they have been a big let down. i.e. loads of waffle and very little substance. But this has 5+ pages so there might be some mention of specific possessions (or is it chattels?).

Shall I go for it?

MB

Tony/Mark,

That was also my thinking, in imagining that William added the inscription to the reverse of the star. My reasoning is that he then retained the star whilst writing the letter, which ensured of course that the date on both would be the same. He then sent them off to to Keats, although I would hazard a guess to his home address, not to Newfoundland - and by the then equivalent of recorded delivery!

However, you may be right - and I may be reading too much into it!

Mark, your idea for checking the handwriting may be a good one, although if William was living in Portman Square in March, 1814, it would seem conclusive. If you wish to check Keat's will (and it sounds as if you want to?) then go for it. Good luck!

Here's an example of brother Wiiliam's handwriting for comparison:


http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/l ... ns-brother

Anna

Thanks.

That looks a good likeness.

Sorry to be my usual pernickety self. But I think with an object as precious and valuable as this Star it is worth double-checking the provenance at every stage.

I have downloaded Keats's will - so will now make myself a strong cuppa and see if I can make any sense of it.

I advise you not to hold your collective breaths in anticipation - but I should be back before the end of the day with something to report.

MB

Following the earlier discussion on the question of an export licence, we should note that (like the Spartiate's union flag) Nelson's Bath star has been consigned to auction from overseas.

The Davison treasures that were auctioned in 2005 were also consigned from overseas, were they not?

A minor point - but the 'descendant' of Keats, mentioned in the Daily Mail link, who is selling the decoration must be a collateral descendant. I've just had a quick look at Keats' Wiki entry and he died without heirs.

I am also puzzled about the date of this gift. Some of Nelson's colleagues sought mementoes soon after his death (including Captain Louis who wrote a very touching letter to Emma Hamilton asking for a small token to remember Nelson by and 'to pass to my posterity') and some, we know, actually stole mementoes. But eight years after Nelson's death seems a strange point in time to be giving away tokens of remembrance. I wondered if it was to mark some special achievement of Keats himself in 1814, but it doesn't appear so. Surely William would have mentioned that in the letter.

Well . . . . . . it wasn't the most boring will that I have ever read/interpreted. But as I guessed unfortunately nothing positive comes out of it as regards the Star.

As Anna pointed out Keats had no children so there were sundry other beneficiaries.

Namely his wife, three sisters, three nephews, and various friends and servants.

As I have seen in previous cases the females plus friends and servants received a financial settlement. And the realty (land, buildings etc.) went to the males i.e. the three nephews.

In the case of his wife she also received various of his personal possessions. His plate, silver, china, glass, prints, pictures, carriages, wines, liquors and all household goods and furniture of every sort. Also all such books as her name may be written in and any other books that she may desire to keep or possess.

Does the Star fall into any of these categories? Well not obviously but maybe.

It then states later in the will:

All the rest, residue and remainder of my estate of what nature or kind . . . . . . . shall be divided by the executors into nine shares. Four shares to go to (nephew number one) Reverend Richard Keats. Three shares to go to (nephew number two) Captain William Keats. Two shares to go to (nephew number three) Captain John Keats.

So could the Star be somewhere in there? Well I haven't a clue.

Hard to see how the executors could have come up with nine equal shares without selling the items and converting them into cash? Or maybe they allowed each nephew to take some personal item/s before the rest went into the "melting pot".

Quite likely we will never know - but at the moment the cast-iron provenance seems to end here.

You may put a different interpretation on this than I have - so please post any comments or suggestions.

I know for sure that I would not be shelling out the sums of money talked about for the Star without a much more precise provenance than we currently have here.

MB

For what it's worth, the NMM have a letter from William Nelson (1st Earl Nelson) to Sir Richard G Keats KB Rear-Adm, signed Nelson and Bronte, dated London, 6 Feb 1812 - AGC/24/19. There is no hint in the catalogue as to its contents.

Tony,

That's intriguing - would love to know what they were corresponding about.

There is no mention of William in the newspaper report of Keats's funeral. But it was only a year until his own death - so I guess that is understandable.

MB

I would hazard a guess that Charles Nelson is mentioned in the correspondence. In fact, if anyone is within striking distance of the NMM & wants to take a look, I am willing to stake a tenner on it (you see, I’m that confident!).

Charles Nelson, according to O’Byrne, Marshall & co, was the son of the Reverend Edmund Nelson, Rector of Congham, near Lynn, Norfolk; who was cousin to Nelson’s father Edmund. Charles Nelson entered the Navy on 30 Sept. 1805 under Captain Keats as midshipman, on board the Superb. After again serving under Keats, now vice-admiral, in the Hibernia, he was commissioned lieutenant on 5 February 1812 (the day before the date of William Nelson’s letter to Keats at the NMM). He attained the rank of Commander 13 June, 1815; and was lastly, from 25 June, 1819, until June, 1822, employed in the Nimrod 18. According to O’Byrne, his elevation to Post-rank took place 9 Oct 1822, but according to the United Services Magazine vol 59, in 1820 he was ‘promoted to the rank of Captain for his active services in her [Nimrod], as mentioned in a letter to the first Earl Nelson'.

It would be interesting to know how much of the above checks out, but perhaps the subtext of William Nelson’s gift of the star was ‘thanks for your help with Charles, now perhaps you could put in another good word for him to help his promotion to commander?’.

Tony

It might almost be worth paying a researcher to take a look at that letter.

If it does check out with Charles Nelson's promotion I wonder if Sotheby's would be interested in that information for their catalogue.

i.e. to show this ongoing relationship between William and Richard Keats long after Nelson's death.

I bet they would!

MB

Ah, no need now - I have found a 1933 sale catalogue entry for the 1812 letter (where it is priced price 10s 6d), and as I thought, it is about Charles Nelson's promotion.

From Maggs Bros, ‘Autograph letters and historical documents’, 1933:

Maybe you might want to bid a bit more for the star now, Mark?

I've added a couple of quid to my maximum bid!!

The inference from the letter is that Keats was not 100% responsible for Charles Nelson's promotion - but I guess he may have used his influence to make it happen.

Are you inclined to share this information with Sotheby's. Or do you think it is too far off topic?

MB

P.S. It would still be fascinating to know which branch of the Keats family the Star was passed down.