Nelson & His World

Yes, Nelson was a Vice Admiral of the White. I don't know whether there is a procedure for promotion after death. Nowadays, of course, medals for gallantry are awarded posthumously. Had that been the case in Nelson's day, he would presumably have received the highest honour.

The sarcophagus that Nelson was buried in was offered by the King himself. It is a very splendid and fitting tomb, I think, and it was a very handsome gesture in view of George III's earlier disapproval of Nelson. Retaining the tomb is a nice reminder that the King made an effort to overcome his earlier hostility.

On 9th January 2006, the 200th anniversary of Nelson's funeral, I attended a re-enactment of the rites in St Paul's Cathedral, when the original format and music was used, so although the sarcophagus was not replaced, it was a really awesome experience to see and hear the words and music of the original ceremony exactly 200 years earlier. You can buy a CD of the ceremony recorded by the choir of Portsmouth Cathedral.

My understanding is that Nelson's coffin is not in the sarcophagus itself but IN THE GRANITE BASE.

I think the sarcophagus was added quite some while after the funeral. I have the date here somewhere - will try and look it out!

Also in the crypt but under the floor are Nelson's brother, sister-in-law and nephew.

I wrote to St Paul's once and asked them how permission was obtained for his relatives to be interred there.

Apparently ANYONE can be buried in St Paul's - it just needs the approval of the Dean!

MB

Vacancies caused by death were vital to the functioning of the career pyramid of naval officers and promoting dead admirals would have seriously harmed it. The number of 'active' admirals in the Navy List (ie Rear, Vice and full Admirals of the white, blue and red squadrons) was fixed. Promotion of captains at the top of their list to Rear Admiral of the Blue (the lowest admiral rank) could therefore only take place when there was a vacancy caused by the death by someone on the admirals' list. There were no provisions for retirement; so if every grade of admiral had a leg up in rank on his death, there would have been no vacancies, and consequently no promotion of captains (and thence of commanders to fill those vacancies and then of lieutenants to fill those etc etc)
The similar problem was seen in the early 1700s when the admirals list was clogged with elderly and incapable officers who would not die and could not be retired. The only way the admiralty could respond was to make outstanding captains commodores and to send them to sea in command of fleets in that rank until an admiral died and the situation could be rectified.

Brian




only took place from the

Margaret,

As has been said, Nelson was a Vice Admiral of the White (Squadron) when he died. (The RN had Red, White and Blue Squadrons until 1864, Red being the senior, Blue the junior.)

This is therefore a comparatively junior flag rank and is actually right in the middle of the Admiral's list. As I see it, Nelson would have had to achieve just one more rank before he became a full Admiral of the White, but an additional three before he became Admiral of the Red, the senior squadron. From Vice admiral of the White, the steps were: Admiral of the White, Rear admiral of the Red, Vice Admiral of the Red, Admiral of the Red. (I seem to remember that the position of Admiral of the Red was only introduced in 1805.) On occasion I believe admirals could miss a rank (although I stand to be corrected) and besides promotion for individuals, there were also general promotions. There were also, of course, several holders of the each rank!

I'm not sure there was a precedent for promotion after death, I have not heard of it (and I see that Brian has just answered this one), but in any case, I would have thought that rank promotions and the awarding of medals are surely not the same thing.

Margaret, Re: the sacophagus, does it actually matter that much that it was not especially designed for Nelson but, I believe for Cardinal Wolsey? In a way, it is nice that a use was actually found for it! In these cash-strapped times, I'm not sure either that the news would go down too well. Who would pay for it?

Mark, there you are, all you need to do is to get to know the Dean! I remember I was quite surprised when you mentioned before the fact that Nelson was in the basement, rather than on the top floor!

I can endorse what Anna said about the CD, it's absolutely beautiful, with the exact wording and music from the event. Colin White also makes a contribution! I found it best to listen to it in a darkened room.

well then, lots of information and opinions. I truly appreciate all, especially the order of ranking.

I guess I am just a love struck admirer and wanted the best for him. The fact that the sarcophogus was for someone else not specially made for him, rubbed me the wrong way.

He was so revered .......

and very true, how would this be paid for

Margaret

Margaret,

In a sense, the fact that Nelson was 'only' a Vice Admiral of the White and yet he is so honoured, even to a burial under the dome of St Paul's and a column and statue in Trafagar Square, highlights even more, I think, the man he was. It also shows that rank is not everything!

Margaret

Sorry if I don't have time to find and post this. But somewhere I have a copy of a drawing from the Illustrated London News of a proposed "dual tomb" for Wellington and Nelson in the crypt of St. Paul's.

The plan was to build 2 new tombs, separate, but identical in design and placed next to each other. I have a strange notion that they were to be viewable from the main body of the cathedral but I may be wrong in that.

I don't know if this was a complete flight of fancy or was being seriously considered by the authorities??!!

MB

P.S. Kester

Just added him to my Christmas card list!!

Mark,

That's interesting, I have not heard of that before. It would be interesting to see the drawing but, since it appeared in the Illustrated London News, I would imagine it was a serious proposal.

I was just looking at the Illustrated London News and can't seem to find anything on Nelson and Wellington, you can e-mail to make a request, don't know if there is a charge for that though

Margaret

Probably only 2 places I would have filed it - either under "Nelson's funeral" or "Nelson & London".

I'll have a rummage before I go to bed tonight and see if I can track it down.

Fingers crossed!!

MB

Phew!

I'm pleased to say that my filing system didn't let me down.

This image was in the ILN in October 1853 i.e. a year or so after Wellington's death.

It had been sent in by a Professor Donaldson who was trying to drum up support for his scheme. The ILN obviously thought it had credibility.

I think at the time the crypt at St Paul's was pretty murky and inhospitable place and Donaldson's idea was to create these impressive new tombs under the centre of the dome and (as I thought) open up the floor of the cathedral directly above them.

I don't know if it was treated seriously by the authorities but quite obviously it never happened.

I am kind of sad about that.



MB

P.S. Margaret - I think you should send a copy of this image to the Dean at St Paul's and see if you have any more luck than Professor Donaldson!!

Mark,

Thanks for taking the trouble to dig it out. Quite ambitious, I would have thought and presumably prompted by Wellington's funeral the year before. I would think the scheme fell through due to the obvious one – money!

I found this interesting site with quite a lot about Wellington and the ILN. However there is an obvious mistake in the first paragraph! :

http://www.victorianweb.org/periodicals/iln/20j.html

Crikey Kester that's a bit of sloppy journalism. I remember Wellington's funeral carriage when it was still in the crypt at St Paul's. As a child I thought it was really spooky!!

And I can "just" remember Churchill's funeral with his coffin on a gun carriage.

I am struggling to find that info. about the Wolsey sarcophagus being put in place in the crypt but I know it is here somewhere and it will eventually surface.

Meanwhile I have found another cryptic mention about a proposed joint tomb/memorial for Nelson and Wellington.

It seems that some time around Wellington's death this idea was also postulated in a respected journal called The Builder. I will try and follow up on this one day but it might be months away so don't anyone hold their breath.

Meanwhile one final interesting little anecdote.

Wellington's coffin was lowered into the crypt through the cathedral floor in the same way as Nelson's. But obviously Nelson's tomb was "in the way" and Wellington's tomb was not yet ready. So what they did was to temporarily remove the top off the Wolsey sarcophagus to create a flat surface. Wellington's coffin was then lowered down until it rested on top of Nelson. And there it remained - not for hours or days but for nearly two years. At some point they surrounded both Nelson and Wellington by wooden boarding to preserve the Duke's dignity. When the first part of his tomb was finally complete they built a sort of "inclined plane" down which to lower the coffin to the floor of the crypt.

Where else would you learn these little gems!!

MB