Nelson & His World

. . . and a woman to boot!

Well supposedly!!

I found this intriguing article in a regional newspaper from 1863.

My very first thought was "Wow - is this the first woman proven to be at Trafalgar?" I can't recall any others.

Then "What an amazing story - why hasn't this been in the public domain before?"

Then "Let's see if I can find her husband on the Trafalgar Roll."

That's when it all started to fall apart. Oh dear. No sign. Not even any permutation of the surname (Simonds).

That's when I started thinking - surely this is all too much!!

So I pass it over to you guys.

Does anyone think any part of it is true?

Or was this lady a serial fantasist?

MB

It's certainly a wonderful story, with enough detail for the experts here to distinguish fact from fantasy.

Well we know for certain that Nelson lived on Bond Street - so that's at least a starting point!!.

Shouldn't be too difficult to find if there was a baker by the name of Gore trading on Bond Street at roughly the same time.

I'll do my best on that one.

MB

Mrs Barnes (nee Gore) claimed that as a child she was "rubbing shoulders" with Nelson, Dorothea Jordan, Richard Sheridan, and the Duke of Clarence (later William IV) - and that was before she apparently set off on all her other adventures.

Having found no mention of her husband at the Battle of Trafalgar I wasn't unduly optimistic when I opened a London Trade Directory - 1805 was the earliest I could get my hands on - to see if there was any possibility that she lived on (New) Bond Street.

WELL it looks as if on this occasion my scepticism was unfounded - see image below - since there definitely was a baker named Thomas Gore trading at 69 New Bond Street. I haven't checked how close this would have been to any of Nelson's addresses on Bond Street - I think there were at least 3 - but it must have been in reasonably close proximity.

So I definitely give her the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Most likely we can never confirm or disprove any of her other claims.

But at least the idea of the young baker's daughter serving Nelson his breakfast MAY be true and a tiny new addition to the Nelson story.

MB

The story of Malta/Victory/Lady Hamilton seems complete gobbledegook to me.

Victory wouldn't have been there surely - and I don't believe Emma ever set foot on board her.

Tell me if you can see any semblance of truth in that and I will willingly eat humble pie.

MB

Mark,

I think we can spare you the pie, as I would agree with you that some of this seems just a little to good to be true. How strange is it also, that she seems to have met all these noteworthy people and appears to have been in 'just the right place at the right time'?

I also agree that I don't think Emma ever went on board the Victory. She was aboard the Foudroyant in the Mediterranean certainly, but this was unavoidable in the circumstances. I'm of the impression that Nelson would have thought Emma too much of a disruptive influence aboard ship, and quite possibly may have attempted to meddle with his professional life. Nelson had this same problem with Fanny, who threatened to come aboard the San Joseph (I think it was) in home waters to look after him. I believe he went out of his way to put her off. He could probably see the same 'mothering' situation developing with Emma – and as if he didn't have enough on his plate, as it was!

Obviously newspaper reporting hasn't changed a great deal – going for what makes a good story, irrespective of the facts! However, having said all that, 'truth is sometimes stranger than fiction'.

Nelson rarely forgot an old shipmate and often recognised them before they could make themselves known to him; but even if he had known Miss Gore as a child, is it likely that he would immediately recognise her, years later, as a married woman? The story would have more credibility if she had said that she made herself known to Lord Nelson and he recalled that.....'

It is likely, that living in the environs of Bond Street, then as now, extremely fashionable, she might have caught sight of many famous people and let her imagination do the rest.

I really would like to be proved wrong, though. It's an engaging tale.

Re: Emma on Victory: it is unlikely that she ever boarded the ship.

In a letter Nelson wrote to Lady Hamilton from Victory, off Toulon, October 18th 1803, Nelson appears to reply to a suggestion from Emma that she should join him. He says that the weather is very bad - 'it will kill you; and myself, to see you. Much less possible, to have Charlotte, Horatia &c on board ship!

And I, that have given orders to carry no women to sea in the Victory, to be the first to break them!'
Quoted in 'Letters of Lord Nelson to Lady Hamilton, with a supplement of interesting letters by distinguished characters.' (pub. Thomas Lovewell, 1814) p. 160 (the book Ed drew our attention to recently on another thread!)

Maybe he did indeed give such an order, though it's not impossible that he invented this as an excuse to discourage Emma.

The story doesn't put Victory or Nelson at Malta - Mrs Barnes went to Malta in Mars, and then proceeded to Palermo with Mrs Spencer Smith, where she supposedly went on board Victory, and it states this was early in April 1805. Nelson did of course proceed to Sicily in 1805 in Victory after Villeneuve's fleet escaped from Toulon, and was off Palermo on 15 April 1805. However, as you have all said, Lady Hamilton was not in the Mediterranean at all in 1805, having been told firmly by Nelson to stay at Merton.

The story certainly reads as though it has been concocted from some Victorian book of famous lives, and the fact that the correspondent to the Telegraph was trying to raise money for Mrs Barnes makes it highly likely that the story has been greatly embellished, if not invented. There may be some grains of truth in it, but most of them were probably used in the bread at Gore's bakery.

Tony

Thanks for that.

Crikey, it had completely slipped my mind that Victory was off Sicily in April 1805. I think I was swayed by the impossibility of Emma being there.

Just out of interest I thought - let's see what Seahorse was up to around then.

From Ships of the Old Navy:

SEAHORSE,38. (1794 Rotherhithe. BU 1819) . . . .

. . . . 1805 Capt. Robert CORBETT, Mediterranean.

What a strange mixture it is of possible truth and almost certain fiction.

MB

Well . . . . . I didn't realise what I had started here!

As the appeal was in the Daily Telegraph I wondered if it was also in the Times - which indeed it was.

Amazingly some of the details there were different from those apparently in the Telegraph.

But it gets worse - there was a reference to an earlier appeal for Mrs Barnes in 1861.

So back I went to 1861. There was indeed an earlier appeal for Mrs Barnes - and yet again some of the details were the same but many were different.

But VERY shortly after the first appeal a letter was written and printed under the heading "Truth Stranger Than Fiction" in which many of Mrs Barnes's claims were questioned.

I will reproduce that below.

Even though most of these questions were later "answered" the inference has to be that this was an elaborate and ongoing scam.

And yet people definitely made donations. Letters from clergymen who were supporting her cause confirm this.

You could argue that it ranks up there with the Pamela Hardy artefacts scam!!

MB

Mark,

And there was me saying that 'truth was stranger than fiction'! I must have had a premonition...

I wonder who 'A' was, from Greenwich, who obviously wished to remain anonymous?

Kester

My brain was fit to explode with this yesterday.

But what an interesting observation.

"A of Greenwich" certainly knew his naval history! Somebody had obvious got wind that something was amiss and was trying to warn people off.

MB

Mark,

Perish the thought – we'd never get to the bottom of this, or anywhere close!

It crossed my mind, that 'A' might have been one of the officers at Greenwich Hospital; it doesn't sound as though it would have been from one of the in pensioners, although you never know. As you say, the letter seems to have been written by someone knowlegeable in naval matters, and with the time available. Is there a list of the officers resident at the Hospital in 186I? Any begin with A? This might be a wild goose chase of course since it could be anyone living in Greenwich, but he obviously has an interest in naval history, so might be a retired or even serving naval officer.

Just a thought.