Nelson & His World

Hello, iam new to this forum and from Germany, so my english is not so good.

Iam interested in the ships used in the Napoleonic wars (and before&after) and after a lot of googling for ship plans and infos i have a question about the storage of the guns. on the most plans you can see that 2-4 guns are placed in the captain's quarters. are these guns present all times or are they brought in when the ship gets ready for action? where are they stored when not in use? are there drawings or pics how the officer's cabins are fitted out, especially the captain's quarters (yes, i have seen those pic from hms trincomalee, hms endeavour and others in google but you can't see much of bedplace or dining room).
thanks in advance,
Fynn

Fynn

These guns were in place at all times.

The picture I have attached here shows the Admiral's (night) cabin of H.M.S. Victory as it is currently laid out - with Lord Nelson's cot suspended between 2 guns.



The image comes from this website:

http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Heritage/1797/Victory/index2.html

You may find some other images there that are of interest to you.

Good luck with your research - we will do our best to help with any other questions you have.

MB

Thanks for the quick reply. I must have missed this picture...
When not in action, were the guns lashed in the forward (run out) or recoiled position? i found some pics of guns "secured for sea" with the muzzle stemmed against the bulkhead above the gun port but when looking at plans of the HMS Sphynx or pics in the www (there is a very nice thread on modelshipworld.com on a Victory model) this takes much space or blocks the passage through the cabin. i think at the upper decks (where the captains cabin is located) the ports can be left open with the gun ran out and the opening closed with canvas or similar (except in heavy weather).

here is the link mentioned above. shows - as i can identify - wardroom and captains quarters.

http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 5472a1a5bf)

Fynn

I can't claim to be an expert in this - hopefully someone else can offer an opinion.

But I just checked in a book I have here - "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" by John Harland.

It shows 3 principle methods of securing the guns:

1. In the Run Out position.

2. Housing or Double-breeching. This is where the gun ports are closed - the quoins knocked out to drop the breech - and the muzzle jammed up against the clamp.

3. Lashing alongside. Here the gun was swung round, and lashed fore and aft against the inside planking, across the port. As Harland says - this method gave more room, for example, in a cabin.

In the life of a ship the time that the guns were needed to fire was relatively very small. So my own opinion is that methods 2 and 3 would be the norm.

I guess that in model-making - even when working to museum standard - there might be some "artistic license" to make the model look as attractive as possible. I am not a model maker so hopefully that comment doesn't offend in any way??!!

MB

In a German forum i got the info that there were two methods to close the gun port with the gun run out - on the USS Constitution were two lids with cutouts to fit around the barrel (tube?) and another way were complete plates with a hole, sometimes even with glass inserts. Very interesting. of course the lashing alongside is a good alternative if there is sufficient space but requires hard work for the gun crew to get their gun ready after dismounting the cabin bulkheads. but thats what they are paid for . here is one of the "cabin guns" aboard the replica of hms surprise.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/holgrove/2 ... 489272746/

thanks for reply,
fynn

I am no expert either, but my guess is that Mark is correct, and that gun ports were normally closed when at sea. I have also seen a diagram of a captain's cabin with one of the guns lashed fore & aft. However, when in port, I believe the guns would be run out to make more space (presumably if not already lashed for & aft).

But I wonder whether in smaller vessels it might have been more common to keep the guns run out with half ports (the two lids with cutouts around the barrel) to keep out the worst of the water?

This exactly what i mean. on a ship of the line or a larger frigate there may be sufficient space to share the cabin or compartments with a gun (especially when lashed fore and aft), just have a look at the pics of the HMS Trincomalee (although the space shown would normally divided into day cabin, dining room and bedplace). But on a smaller vessel (http://www.dlumberyard.com/Hahn/rattlesnake.htm) the situation is clearly different. it would be nice to see a diagram or pic on such a vessel to get a feeling....

focussing in smaller vessels, i damnable ignored the hms victory in my search
here is a picture that shows the captain's bedplace with the inevitable gun lashed alongside the gunport.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50081377@N ... 649776649/

sitting at home after a bankart lesion and following surgery i have too much time and did a very rough scetch of a possible layout of the captains cabin on the Rattlesnake but i don't know how to attach the picture (it is on my laptop, not the www). can anyone help me?

Fynn

That picture ties exactly with John Harland's description of fore-and-aft securing.

I would be interested to see your sketch layout - but I don't think this forum has the facility to upload images. You would need to upoad it to some other webspace and link to it.

Do you have any personal webspace where you could put the image.

Otherwise I will send my email through the PM system and sort it for you.

MB

.
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Here is Fynn's diagram as promised:



MB

Flynn,

Just to add my two-penny worth, Mark has the right assessment.

On large ships such as the Victory or others in the British fleet, the ports would have been securely closed when at sea and in bad weather, when not required. The guns were secured with the quoins removed, the muzzle being lashed to ringbolts over the top of the port. All the gun rigging would also be sweated up tight and the breech rope had a loop turned in it to shorten it, which was then laid atop the breech. A long line was run across the gun barrel, forward of the carriage, both below and above it with several turns, these also being lashed taught around both arms of the breech rope and the gun barrel.

On ships like Victory, the guns on the middle deck aft (24pdrs, in the officers cabins adjacent to the wardroom), the upper deck (12 pdrs, in the Admiral's cabin) and the quarterdeck (12pdrs in the captain's cabin) would, as you say have been slewed around sideways when not required and lashed fore and aft to the ship's side. Although trained seamen would have done this with relative ease, thankfully this was probably not necessary with the lower deck 32pdrs!

The only other types of gunport on the Victory, at least, and as far as I am aware of, were the those with half doors hinged vertically, one on either side of the middle deck right forward (the sickbay), and half ports hinged horizontally, for the chase ports aft, which were party hidden by the baluster work on the stern. They would appear to have become more common later in the nineteenth century and on smaller vessels

I hope you are gradually getting over your surgery.

Courtesy of John Harland's book the following diagram shows a gun secured "fore and aft".



Fynn - do I infer from your posts that you are building a model of the Rattlesnake?

I don't know if there are any model makers on this forum - but I am sure members would be interested to know how far you have got with the model.

Are you working from a kit?

MB

Thanks for your answers and posting of the picture.

No, i am not builing a model, i am too impatient for this works. I am just interested and when i get caught on a theme i try to discover any little detail, especially if the typical descriptions and infos are generic.

@Devenish: the surgery was 3 weeks ago but the left arm is fixed in a suspensory bandage (gilchrist) since that (and for for the next 3 weeks...), luckily iam right-handed

Mark,

As I build models myself, I was just about to ask the same thing! (At the present time I am constructing a model of the Victory's bow section.)

Fynn,

I hope your arm mends ok. If it had been your right arm, you might have developed writing similar to Nelson's!