Nelson & His World

Discussion on the life and times of Admiral Lord Nelson
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 Post subject: A ship called the Lion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:09 am 
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The broadside ballad in the link below begins 'We sailed from the downs in a ship called the Lion/with fifty brass guns our crew could rely on.'

http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/15046

It's a humorous account of the Lion's engagement with a French ship, and pokes fun at the pacifist Quaker and an Irishman on board.

The printed version here dates from the Victorian era, and refers to 'fighting for our Queen', but the commentary notes that the ballads of the day often referred to an earlier period.

Since Britain and France were not at war the middle of the 19th century, could this be a song 're-worked' from one of Nelson's day, perhaps?

And is the tale totally fanciful? Or is there any record of 'a ship called the Lion' fighting a French ship?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:19 am 
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Anna,

My guess is that it could perhaps be an earlier period, especially with specific mention of the quaker. The name Lion for a ship actually goes back to 1511, according to this from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Lion

It did actually cross my mind that the Queen referred to might have been Anne (there is mention of a third rate Lion for 1709, although no details are given) although this is just speculation on my part.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:15 pm 
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The following information comes from a database of "Ships of the Old Navy". Not sure if it is still live online.

Could be something in here that is being referred to.

Quote:
LION,64. (1777 Portsmouth. Hulk 1816) 1792 Capt. Sir Erasmus GOWER who was appointed at the express desire of Lord Macartney, then about to proceed to the court of Pekin as ambassador to Tchien Lung, the emperor. LION sailed from Spithead on 26 September 1792 with her tender, the JACKALL, and the East Indiaman HINDUSTAN. The ambassador's suite numbered nearly 10O beside soldiers and servants
JACKALL parted company in a gale of Portland on the 28th. and made the voyage independantly. She rejoined LION on 23 March 1793.
On her passage from Batavia to North Island LION struck on a knoll in 3 fathoms of water. The damage was only slight but the want of a tender was much felt so the captain sent back to Batavia to purchase one which was named the DUKE OF CLARENCE. During the long voyage scurvy made its appearance in LION and HINDUSTAN but the sick lists were gradually reduced by the fresh food otainable in Java and Sumatra.
1796 Capt. Manley DIXON, North Sea station. On 7 December 1796 she rescued the crew of REUNION which had been wrecked on a sandbank in the Swin. Lieut. William TREMLETT of LION was particulary thanked by the president of the subsequent court martial. Later LION proceeded to the Mediterranean.
At the beginning of July 1798 three boats under the command of Lieut. TREMLETT engaged an armed Greek off Malaga. At the moment he pushed alongside two of his boats deserted him and in the following seven minutes 20 of his companions were either killed or wounded as they attempted an unsupported boarding. Although the handle of his dirk was shot off and a number of shot passed through his clothing, the lieutenant was the only one unhurt.
On 15 July LION, after an action with four Spanish frigates off Catagena, captured the SANTA DOROTHEA of 42 guns and 370 men. The prize had lost her fore-topmast and was, lagging behind and to leeward of her companions when Capt. MANLEY attacked. He came under fire as the other three Spanish ships tacked in succession and and passed to windward of LION within musket shot, but the result of their broadsides was one midshipman and one seamen wounded. The SANTA DOROTHEA lost 20 killed and 32 wounded before she struck. She was taken into the Royal Navy under the same name and Lieut. TREMLETT was appointed her first lieutenant. Naval medals were awarded for the action in 1847.
1801 Capt. H. MITFORD. LION arrived in Portsmouth from the Downs on 11 May and on the 19th she and the HINDUSTAN store ship, Capt. MOTTLEY, sailed from Portsmouth with the East Indiamen WOODFORD, DUKE OF BUCCLEUGH, WARLEY, TAUNTON CASTLE, ALBION, EARL OF ABERGAVENNY, ALFRED and BELVIDERE under convoy for China. HINDUSTAN had stores for the Cape. 1803 In ordinary at Chatham.
In 1804-5 she was rebuilt in Dudman's Yard at Deptford. 1806 Capt. Robert ROLLES, East Indies, from whence he convoyed home some of the Hon. Company's ships and was presented with £500 for the purchase of a piece of plate. 1807 Channel. At daylight on 27 December 1807, some nine or ten miles south of Beachy Head, LION gave chase to a suspicious lugger. It took all day before they could capture her and she proved to be the French 14-gun privateer RECIPROCITE which had sailed from Dieppe on the 25th with another lugger. They had been lying in wait close in shore but had made no captures. Two years old she was a fast sailer and her crew consisted of French, Prussians, Danes, Portuguese, Swedes and Americans.
On 15 January 1808 a court martial at Portsmouth found Lieut. James WOODWARD guilty of disobedience and he was dismissed from the LION.
Early in 1811 Capt. ROLLES obtained command of the EDINBURGH,74.
1811 Capt. Henry HEATHCOTE. East Indies. On 22 February he was ordered by Vice Ad. DRURY to take charge of the western coast of India from Cape Cormorin to the bottom of the Persian Gulf, " ... acting according to circumstances, for the preservation of trade, and the general good of H.M. service." These orders were later confirmed by Commodore BROUGHTON following Vice Ad. DRURY's death on 6 March 1811.
While Capt. HEATHCOTE was at Bombay in June 1811 arranging an escort for a China convoy the HUSSAR frigate arrived with dispatches from the Admiralty which, being senior officer present, he opened. They brought the news that 18 French frigates with 3-4OOO troops had escaped from the ports of France and were expected to be on passage to reinforce the island of Java to which an invasion force under Commodore BROUGHTON was then sailing. Capt. HEATHCOTE, considering this information of more importance than escorting a convoy, immediately set sail for Java with the news. Commodore BROUGHTON, angry that the captain had disobeyed his orders, asked Rear Ad. STOPFORD to court martial him for a breach of the 27th Article of War. (No person shall sleep upon his watch, or negligently perform his duty, or FORSAKE HIS STATION, upon pain of death or such punishment as a court martial shall think it fit to inflict)
The court martial took place on board NISSUS in Batavia Road on 30 August 1811 and found that, although the charges were proved, his deviation from the orders he had received was due to his zeal for the good of his Majesty's service and that the importance of the information justified his conduct. He was acquitted.
LION was added to Commodore BROUGHTON's squadron and on 4 September Ad. STOPPFORD detached him with ILLUSTRIOUS, MINDEN, LION and LEDA, with the 14th and part of the 78th regiments of foot embarked, to rendezvous off the entrance of Gressie. MODESTE with Lieut. Gen. Sir Samuel AUCHMUTY sailed on the 5th and Ad. STOPPFORD in SCIPION on the 6th. On the 8th information was received that the French and Dutch forces intended to make a stand at Samarang so BROUGHTON's squadron joined the admiral there on the 10th but instead the enemy quit the town and retreated towards Sourabaya. SCIPION, LION, NISUS, PRESIDENT, PHOEBE, and HARPY sailed for there on the 15th and landed troops and marines under Capt. HARRIS of Sir FRANCIS DRAKE on the 19th. When they learnt that Java had surrendered the day before, Sourabaya was occupied and fell under the general terms of the capitulation.
While LION was in the vicinity of Canton, Lieut. William MARTIN was put in command of the launch and 20 men and ordered to sekk out and detain two American ships from Manilla. He was attacked by five pirate vessels each mounting four or five small guns and carrying at least 30 men. The attackers were finally driven off after an obstinate struggle lasting more than two hours. Lieut. MARTIN and 18 of his companions were wounded.
1812 Capt. G. DOUGLAS. Flagship of Rear Ad. R. STOPFORD, Cape of Good Hope. 1814 Capt. Henderson BAIN. He was posted out of the HARPY sloop in April 1813. Flagship of Rear Ad. Charles TYLER, Cape of Good Hope. 1815 Sheer hulk at Plymouth.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Thanks, both, for your thoughts on this. The encounter with the Reciprocité, Captain Rolles, in 1807 seems a possibility - though according to the link below the Lion was a 64 - but that would have upset the metrical pattern of the ditty! The Quaker and the Irishman may be later embellishments, the original story having been embroidered in the telling.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ooJ3 ... q=&f=false

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:59 pm 
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The 64-gun Lion (1777) was also in action against the French in the American War of Independence, and commanded by Captain Cornwallis, was badly damaged in the Battle of Grenada. She was also of course the ship that brought Nelson home in 1780.

My ancestor served in her as first lieutenant for a couple of years under Captain Seymour Finch following the mobilization in 1790.

But 'fifty brass guns' (if accurate) also suggests a slightly earlier period to me. The 50-gun Lion is too early, but the 40-gun Lion or 60-gun Lion might be candidates.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:00 pm 
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As mentioned by other contributors, the name LION has been a favourite in the Royal Navy. The ship in service 1778 - 1837 was involved in a number of actions, including one against four Spanish frigates in 1798 and the capture of the Guillaume Tell in 1800.

An earlier Lion (built 1738) had a similarly distinguished career - in action against French Elizabeth in 1745; the Maligne in 1745; Zephyr in 1762 as well as fleet actions; plus she took a couple of privateers

The Lion of 1709 had a rather quieter career, but is noted as taking two privateers in 1710.

The earlier Lion's (of 1640 and 1658) fought in the battles of the Dutch Wars and the Smyrna Convoy action.


I would think that trying to pin it down to one action will be extremely difficult .... it may well be that the author of the ditty was just using a name long used by the navy ...and which handily rhymed with "rely on".


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:26 am 
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Many thanks to all for these interesting insights.

A little more probing has revealed a book, 'The Literature and Lore of the Sea' by an American author, Patricia Ann Carlson, who quotes a slightly different version of the ballad, this time mentioning fighting 'for the King', not the Queen, which shifts the time-scale somewhat. However, the author notes that the origins of this ballad were to be found in the log of the 'Romulus' (1851). Curiouser and curiouser!

http://tinyurl.com/nyu6he

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:31 am 
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Alice, sorry, Anna,

Tony made an interesting point regarding the 'brass' guns, which certainly implies that the event, if it happened, is probably early.

I'm actually thinking more and more that this is a fictitious ship, since it doesn't sound as though they are on a warship, although she has fifty guns, and I'm not sure there were any privateers carrying that heavy an armament. There is the possibility, however, that she may be an Indiamen, since they were fairly heavily armed. I'm just speculating however, and PN would also seem to be thinking along the lines of her being a figment of someone's imagination, presumably the story teller!

I don't know if it helps any, but the use of the term 'larboard' for the left hand side of a ship, when facing the bows, was changed to 'port' around 1844. It hardly narrows it down by much!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:55 am 
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By one of those strange co-incidences, I found a manuscript copy of this poem for sale on ebay. It was described as being of 'the Napoleonic era'. I wasn't so sure, as the handwriting looked Victorian. I bought it anyway, for a small sum, just out of curiosity.

The poem was indeed dated 1879, though the writer had noted that he had copied this poem when 'I was half my present age.' (Not much help in dating it!)

However, I noted - and should have done so before, on the printed broadsheet copy - that the poem was in rhyming couplets with end rhymes such as job/swab, west/dressed, slay/away etc. But the couplet containing the line that ended 'fight for our Queen', was followed with a line ending in 'thing'. So clearly, the original word was not 'Queen', but 'King', suggesting that the poem pre-dated Queen Victoria, and was probably of the Georgian, if not the Napoleonic, era.

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