Nelson & His World

This dealer is offering for sale what is described as a small piece of the Victory’s ensign that was used at Nelson’s funeral. See here for more information: http://www.paulfrasercollectibles.com/s ... docid=1015

Either the dealer does not keep his ears very close to the ground, or he has not heard of Google, because this flag was sold at auction just a couple of years ago. See here: http://www.cowanauctions.com/upcoming_d ... uctionName

At that time, Colin White alerted us to the sale of the flag here on the forum (posting as boreas) - see here: viewtopic.php?t=145 It was very obvious that the flag (printed on a single piece of cotton) was not of the construction or size of a Royal Navy flag of the period, and the story of John Cline/Clyne being the sailing master of the Victory is a complete nonsense as there was no Cline or Clyne in the ship. The consensus of the forum, including Colin White, was that the flag was a fake (albeit probably an old one). It sold for $7,475 which is somewhat less than the £384,000 achieved by the Spartiate’s Union Jack, and perhaps reflects the majority view of the ensign’s authenticity. My sympathy goes to the gullible soul who purchased it.

Given that this ensign sold for $7,000, and that the dealer is most specific that his 1½ x 4 inch piece of off-white cotton fabric is from that very same flag 'retained by John Clyne, and passed down through his descendents', his asking price of £75,000 seems a little high. Converting between dollars and pounds, his asking price for the fragment is about ten times the price the whole flag sold for two years ago!

There is no doubt that he is referring to the same flag. It even has the same small triangular tear in the photograph in the newspaper article.

As it happens, I also have several small pieces of white cotton fabric, which I would be prepared to let go at a very reasonable price…

Thanks for that posting Tony, I have been totally engrossed with it for at least 1hr 25 minutes at the last count!
EMP

Tony,

I'm sorely tempted but, with the high price of everything these days (including fakes), I should hang on to them if I were you...

Kester, what if I throw in a genuine photocopy of a newspaper clipping - for free?

Actually, I may have got things wrong. Perhaps it is the ‘gullible soul’ who purchased the flag for $7,475 who is now chopping it into small pieces and trying to sell them for £75,000 each.

Oooh! Oooh! I shall certainly have to think about that!

Ok, Tony, I've thought. Thanks, but no thanks – I'll keep my readies!

Shucks - Don't you trust me?

One of the most disturbing things about this is the credentials of the ‘dealer’. Paul Fraser of ‘Paul Fraser Collectibles’ recently stepped down as Chairman (and owner) at Stanley Gibbons. The team is headed by Adrian Roose who was Head of Investments at both Stanley Gibbons and Frasers Autographs. He is the contact for this particular sale. These people have handled the sale of hundreds of millions of pounds of collectibles, and yet they cannot even be bothered to do a quick Google to see whether they are correct in saying that ‘No parts of the ensign have been seen in the last 5 years... until today.’

Here is how easy the research would have been: http://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=victo ... john+clyne – At the moment that brings up the old thread headed ‘Nelson’s funeral flag for sale’, but it may soon bring up this new thread instead. The same search also shows that the same fragment they are currently selling was also offered for sale at auction last year, which you would think they might perhaps just know something about. So - not seen in the last 5 years, eh?

Here is what Paul Fraser Collectibles say about themselves: ‘Help you every step of the way’ – to what?

Even if the flag was genuine, the hype and greed just oozes from the sales pitch. This fragment is not even claimed to have been cut from the flag at Nelson’s funeral, but instead more recently removed from the ‘near complete flag that was retained by John Clyne, and passed down through his descendents’. Had the flag been genuine, that would have been an act of sheer vandalism on which Paul Fraser Collectibles passes no comment other than ‘Don’t miss out’…

Caveat emptor…

No.

Actually, as to the your main point I trust your instincts entirely that Paul Fraser Collectibles would seem to be on rather shaky ground here which, as you say, a little searching around would have obviated. Not least that would have brought up our old thread on Nelson and His World, which might just have rung a few alarm bells!

However, they are in the business of selling things and obviously at the highest price possible. Why research anything too deeply if they know that some gullible person, sorry, one of their potential customers, is likely to purchase it on the strength of their persuasive in-house sales patter. They obviously have this tuned to a 'fine art' itself – almost to a point where the not-so-gullible are in danger of being taken in, if they're not careful. The storyline too is impressive, and I'm still trying to picture John Cline trying to stuff Victory's ensign in his waistcoat!

Cash empty...

There's a piece here from The Times of 18 September 1984 which mentions two pieces of the flag which were picked up from the floor of St Paul's by a spectator, a Mr J Constable and were auctioned at Bonham's soon after the article appeared. The story of the sailors taking their souvenirs is well known, but I'd never heard the Constable story before.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 483964.ece

I note that the link Tony gave to Paul Fraser's auction states that the remnant from the flag was a cotton/silk mixture. Did they really use silk in naval flags? Silk is susceptible to damp and prone to rot in sunlight - not the most suitable material for a ship's ensign, I should have thought.

I believe most British naval flags at that time were made with wool bunting, rather than cotton. But the NMM have part of an early US ensign believed to have been from the Chesapeake, which is made with a silk/cotton mixture bunting.

Anna,

As Tony said, British flags were normally made from wool bunting, and one wonders if that is something else that the auctioneers are incorrect about? However, if they are right, that would be another pointer as to its being a fake.

I can quite believe the NMM's assessment of the flag thought to come from the Chesapeake, as being a silk/cotton mix. I would imagine that the raw materials available in any particular country partly governs the manufacture of various items, including flags. Cotton, and I think silk, was and is commonly grown in the US, so what would be more natural than to use it for flags. The UK is more used to wool and woollen products, which very likely harks back to the importance of the wool trade in the Medieval period.

Incidentally I believe that American ships often used cotton sails too, rather than the flax canvas of British ships and I have heard that American vessels were easy to spot at sea due to this, since the cotton made for whiter sails!

P.s. This J. Constable wasn't an artist was he?

The NMM also have what they believe to be a genuine fragment of the Victory’s ensign from Nelson’s funeral. It is made of wool bunting, and they comment on the characteristic loose weave in their description. See here: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson ... ID=AAA0924

The pieces mentioned by Anna picked up by ‘Mr J Constable’ and sold by Bonhams in 2004 are the same pieces mentioned by Paul Fraser Collectibles as evidence of the value of theirs. Here are the Bonhams lot details with a clear view of the loose weave: http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.s ... ectionNo=1

Rina Prentice in ‘The Authentic Nelson’ says ‘Small fragments said to be from this same flag continue to appear from time to time in the salerooms. Some clearly do not match the weave of the pieces believed to be authentic, but others appear to have reasonable provenance and provide a match with the fabric of the original’. She goes on to cite the above fragments sold by Bonhams as an example of the latter.

Paul Fraser Collectibles are specific that their fragment is from the same flag as the Enys collection fragments sold by Bonhams. This is totally impossible because one of the two fragments sold by Bonhams was from the blue part of the flag. The photo of the ‘John Clyne’ flag in the newsclipping provided by Paul Fraser Collectibles shows that none of the blue cloth in that flag is missing, and this was confirmed by photo provided at the Cowan’s auction of the flag two years ago.

‘The Authentic Nelson’ also has a fascinating chapter titled ‘Caveat Emptor: Fakes, Copies and Myths’. Apparently, after a sale in 1998, a man was sent to prison for selling a number of fakes, including ‘a piece of the Victory’s flag torn by the sailors at his funeral’. (What is the Latin for ‘seller beware’?) However, in that case, it was accompanied by provenance which was proved to be forged, and the flag fragments contained modern dyes.

There is of course a difference between deliberate fakes, intentional misattributions and accidental misattributions. There is also a duty on salerooms and dealers not to make false claims. Auctioneers are usually careful to include opaque caveats in their descriptions, so that items are ‘believed to be’, ‘thought to be’, and so on. There is an altogether different level of duty on dealers who claim to be experts who will help and advise you on building your collection. They have some obligation to check basic facts and to provide their expert opinion on authenticity. Paul Fraser Collectibles are quite categorical that their fragment is from the actual ensign of the Victory that was flown at Trafalgar and carried by sailors of the Victory at Nelson’s funeral (and that their sailing master was John Clyne).

I am pleased to say that, as predicted, a Google search on ‘victory ensign john clyne’ now brings up as its first result a forum thread titled ‘Caveat Emptor’...

What a fascinating - and cautionary - tale.

Presumably, any purchaser who subsequently discovered that the fragment was not genuine would have a claim under the Trade Descriptions Act? Tony, would you think of presenting this evidence to the dealer?

The Latin for 'let the seller beware' is 'Caveat venditor.'

According to the NMM (and other sources) three flags from the Victory were carried at Nelson's funeral, the St. George's Ensign (i.e. the White Ensign) and two union jacks. The former would obviously have flown from the mizzen gaff and the two jacks were presumably those which flew from the fore and main topmast stays. (All the British ships present at Trafalgar had these hoisted to aid recognition, and which I believe were ordered by Nelson himself before the battle.)

That the NMM's fragment comes from the canton (or Union Jack part) of the ensign seems fairly evident, both from its size and the angle of the arms, but is it certain that this was the only flag torn by the seamen? I'm just speculating here, in that most authorities say that the fragments come from the ensign, or the 'largest flag', but is it just possible that some of the fragments may have come from either or both of the two jacks?

I have also been looking at Cowan's site again, at picture of the flag and the description beneath, and several things struck me. Firstly, and this may have been mentioned before, the flag itself appears too square and not of the right proportions and, secondly, I'm not so sure that the arms of the St Patrick's Cross would have come to a point where they join with the corners of the crosses of St George and St. Andrew. (Forgive me for saying so, but this is probably how a child would draw a Union Jack if asked!) I have done a bit of reading and most authorities say that the arms are cut off at an oblique angle, where they join with the white of the horizontal St Andrew's cross, (the angle depending of course on which side they are set) and neither do they run to the corners. (Look at any proper Union Jack and you will see that, due to the 'counterchange of the saltire' as it was called, some of the arms are set further back from the corners than others.)

Moving on to the description, there are several references here which point to to Cowan's not really knowing what they are talking about. Firstly, they seem to have assumed that Nelson was the senior admiral of the RN, not knowing that he was a 'mere' Vice-Admiral of the White, and therefore seem somewhat surprised that he was not flying a Red Ensign; John Cline according to them was the sailing master, but even if he was, he would not have been in charge of the seamen, but the navigation of the ship; then they say that the seamen kept a piece of the flag in rememberance of their dead captain. Presumably they knew that Nelson was an Admiral, but seem not to have known that he would have had a flag-captain to handle the Victory; finally, where did the Admiralty, in their letter, put forward the idea that Nelson's body was wrapped in the White Ensign before burial? It's the first I've heard of it. Did their Lordships really say that and, more to the point, were they actually taken in themselves?

Perhaps though, I protest (nitpick) too much?

Kester, as well as all the problems you pick out, let's just re-emphasise the even more fundamental problems with the Cowan’s flag. It is the wrong size (far too small), the wrong fabric (printed cotton), and the wrong construction (single piece of printed fabric instead of sewn strips of bunting).

But I’m not sure the design of the Union Jack is necessarily a problem. The Navy at that time seems to have been surprisingly unconcerned about how accurately it was represented on their flags. Or perhaps they just put up with what they were given. Take a look at this pre-1801 Union Flag from the Queen Charlotte at the Glorious First of June. How weird is that? The NMM comment that ‘other late 18th and early 19th century flags in the collection show the diagonals of the Scottish saltire failing to join up correctly’. After 1801 the St Patrick’s cross then started to cause problems. For example the Minotaur’s Union Jack from Trafalgar is a lot better than the Cowan’s flag, but it is still not quite correct.

I am sure you are right that it is possible that some of the fragments may have come from either or both of the two jacks present at the funeral. I was just commenting on the impossibility of the Paul Fraser claim that all the pieces came from the one flag in their newspaper clipping.

There was actually a second white ensign at Nelson’s funeral. And it was a small one. It was flown from the ‘stern’ of the funeral carriage. (This is probably what Cowan’s are referring to when they say ‘in addition, there is a photo copy of a contemporary illustration of Nelson's catafalque with the White Ensign draped at its front’ – more evidence that they haven’t a clue – they can’t tell the front from the back!) After the funeral it went on display (presumably still intact) with the funeral carriage in the Painted Hall at Greenwich, and was then later given to William Rivers. His wife inherited it on his death, and after her death it was eventually sold along with the rest of his collection of Nelson relics. Where is it now?

EMP, sorry to have taken up so much of your time

I don't think I need to, Anna. Paul Fraser Collectibles have today made some slight edits to their website. They have removed a couple of things that I quoted previously. They have removed the sentence 'No parts of the ensign have been seen in the last 5 years... until today', and aso the final urge 'Don't miss out'.